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11 sats \ 0 replies \ @EagleSats 8 Feb \ on: Bitcoin Bank ecash
Yes, Bitcoin replaces central banking, not retail banking.
Yeah that's right, I meant to say autofees.
Thanks for the chat! 👍
Oh just saw your at LNMarkets. Nice work, hope you guys are still kicking goals over there!
Any subsequent update will always be more accurate than the previous update. Also you dont need the update to propagate through the entire network for it to be useful. Every new node that receives it along the way creates a higher percentage of the network using the new parameters.
In any case, the use case in my head is more for adjusting rates on wildy fluctuating channels (not for making minor adjustments).
For instance consider you open a channel to a sink and they suck all the liquidity to their side straight away, so theres no more routing capacity in that direction. You'll want a fast and severe increase in fees on that channel to prevent any more nodes from trying to send funds that way.
So in that way it helps the network at large because there should be less failed attempts to route payments.
With the current LND autoloop, you'd be waiting 3 days for an update and it would only be a percentage of the median change in liquidity across all your channels (or something like that, i cant remember it exactly of the top of my head).
So meaningful change on a completely exhausted channel will likely take several cycles of fee adjustments.
Does any of that make sense?
I guess it depends on your view about the greater "purpose" of Bitcoin.
While self-custody is obviously the optimal way to hold bitcoin, I don't believe having the ability to self-custody is the be all and end all of Bitcoins existence. You can already self-custody fiat cash.
Its more about the solid monetary properties.
Bitcoin replaces central banking, not retail banking.
Everyone doesn't need to use bitcoin natively for Bitcoin to fulfill its objectives.
Most will use it custodially - even bank with it! And that's perfectly fine.
The most important aspect is that it can't be debased by governments.
(all in my opinion of course)
And i guess to bring it back to your post, that is to say LN works great when those facts are accepted.
Ah ok, you're right each update is for the single channel. Then the update announcements are rebroadcast by the peer every 60 seconds -
This reduces the number of messages that a node may broadcast to 1 channel_announcement per channel, and 1 node_announcement per node per 60 seconds and 1 channel_update per channel per 60 seconds.
It also says that because of the staggered batching of the updates, then multiple updates of the same channel can replace previous updates-
Because gossip messages are batched and replace previous ones, the result may be a single seemingly-redundant update.
So my thinking is that technically it shouldnt matter how often you update your channel, even if it hasnt propagated through the network completely, since any following updates that catch up to it will just replace the previous update in-memory during the gossip staggering/batching process.
I guess that might mitigate the propagation question (if im right that is), so its just a matter of resource conservation.
What do you think?
So it seems my node will send an update message whenever there is a change. It also sounds like the gossip message is a single message that is the complete state of all channels on the node, and it sends that whole piece of data to every node I am connected to every time there is an update to any channel.
Do you know if it staggers these gossip messages? Or just cycles through the nodes? Or sends them all in a single push?
My main reason for trying to get my head more around it is to do with routing fee updates, and what the optimal delay between updates is. For instance LND's autoloop runs on a 3 day cycle because they are trying to minimise the amount of gossip messages nodes need to deal with.
I feel that is much too slow to take meaningful action when trying to manage liquidity via fee rates.
But there must be an optimal amount of time which both takes decisive action on a depleted channel, but also doesnt overload peers with gossip updates.
Sharks are unable to complete a degree, due to a requirement for the tests to be completed on land, an environment in which sharks cannot survive.
For custodial use of bitcoin to not be considered 'adoption', you would also have to believe that fiat has also never been adopted, since nobody is living purely off physical cash.
Hi @StackerKnacker we've fixed the QR issue now, so you'll be able to tap to copy the QR code on mobile devices. 👍
Hi, yeah addresses are chosen randomly from the pool, so that the first few don’t get everything and the last few miss out!
Thanks for the feedback about paying on your phone, we’ll have a think about how we can make that better.