Is South Africa Really Leading in Bitcoin Usage (Replacing Fiat) for Retailers? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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Is South Africa Really Leading in Bitcoin Usage (Replacing Fiat) for Retailers?

167 sats \ 42 comments \ @spiderman 13h bitcoin

Saw a few interesting articles (here is an example) talking about retail Bitcoin adoption in South Africa, where it is not just an investment/saving, but a medium of exchange.

I am curious to get some perspective from someone closer to the ground here, are these narratives realistic? Is it like a random fast-food chain on the street is accepting lightning, or at least considering doing so in the coming year?

Also, the number (more than half a million) retailers accepting Bitcoin sounds wildly optimistic to me, and not even corroborated by BTC Map. Is there some other map or app where I can get a semi-accurate view regarding this?

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100 sats \ 15 replies \ @supratic 7h

Ask yourself how 650,000 South African Merchants get to "adopt bitcoin"?

There fiat middlemen are playing between. It's not P2P... that's not adoption. That's not bitcoin circular economy. Is Bitcoin one-way monopoly.

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @anon 7h

You're right, it's not adoption, and it's not ideal. But it does provide a fantastic answer to the question we get from almost all people we on-board: "What can I do with Bitcoin?"

It also eases the full on-boarding of merchants accepting MoneyBadger payments (via Scan to Pay, Zapper, etc.), by pointing out that they already accept Bitcoin and are unnecessarily paying the payment processor fee to do so.

MoneyBadger is a crucial catalyst to real adoption. Success for them means going out of business because everyone accepts Bitcoin directly. They have given me no reason to doubt their sincerity.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @supratic 7h

So as it look you are really involved on this matter, how a merchant onboarded with MoneyBadger get sats from sales to? Which wallet?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @anon 6h

Merchants don't onboard with MoneyBadger if they want to accept sats. The vast majority merchants use Blink wallet. A small number use Aqua.

Some print out LNURL QR codes and train staff to verify payments on customer wallets. Some generate invoices in Blink on a phone. Others use Blink's built-in, web based POS.

P.S. Props to Blink. They have shown us a lot of support in many different aspects. They (along with a few other wallets) actually integrate MoneyBadger payments directly into their wallet apps! <3

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @supratic 6h

Merchants don't onboard with MoneyBadger if they want to accept sats.

No? really? So what your ambassadors are doing out there? Ah yeah, I bet they don't present themselves as MoneyBadger reps, or do they? The important is that they promote Binance or Blink, right?

Anyway, good job, keep it up until it stands.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 6h

Your skepticism is understandable, but unwarranted in this case, I assure you.

My only affiliation with MoneyBadger is as a user, and an ardent supporter of their great work. Their Ambassadors program is far from their primary focus, and I'm not one of them. To be honest, that's the part of their work I'm least happy with too.

I'd rather spend the time on-boarding a merchant directly, rather than on-boarding them to Zapper. My only involvement with Binance is warning everyone against that casino, whenever their name comes up.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @anon 7h

That's not bitcoin circular economy. Is Bitcoin one-way monopoly.

That depends on how you draw your "circle" ;)

While sats paid via MoneyBadger does leave your immediate town, it still stays in South Africa, at least.

By implication you should prioritise vendors based on how far the sats go: first support merchants in your local community who accept sats, then people from the next community over, then district, town, country, etc.

100 sats \ 3 replies \ @supratic 7h

That's not a circle, that's a semicircle. Or is MoneyBadger paying salaries in sats? Btw, South Africa still a fiat jurisdiction, a fictional entity, a registered business in DC.

Truth is MoneyBadger send merchants to Biance... common, is that really a good option for merchants? Or is just better for those that want to spend bitcoin? What's the cut MoneyBadger get for onboarding merchants to Binance? Do MoneyBadger get this cut paid in sats?

Not my business, and honestly I don't even care. Just saying, there are better ways to educate people to spend and merchants to do business.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @anon 6h

Truth is MoneyBadger send merchants to Biance

MoneyBadger doesn't send merchants anywhere. Most merchants don't even know that they're "accepting Bitcoin payments". Merchants' invoices are still settled in fiat, transparently. I pay in sats, they receive ZAR.

Don't know what MB's finances look like or what deals they have in place, but I can tell you they've been very responsive to criticisms of this kind, and there's a community keeping them honest. Not that they need much of that, since they're a bunch of maxis themselves.

See my other comment for the catalysing role they're playing.

Just saying, there are better ways to educate people to spend and merchants to do business.

If you have any materials or advice that would help, it would be most welcome. We're trying anything and everything to on-board as many people and businesses as we can. MoneyBadger is one of those approaches, and a very effective one.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @supratic 6h

MoneyBadger doesn't send merchants anywhere

sure https://archive.is/Zu7Fo#selection-1085.0-1085.69

If you have any materials or advice that would help, it would be most welcome.

Reach out privately, I'll be more than happy to help

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 6h

See my response to their Ambassadors program here. Maybe you should reach out to them and complain this :)

Reach out privately, I'll be more than happy to help

Don't have an account :(

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @standard_sats 7h

It is not P2P, but it sure lays a foundation of understanding. You don't expect people who may not understand Bitcoin from scratch to jump in and start accepting p2p Bitcoin for payment of goods.

It starts with having firms that are willing to help them facilitate it. With time, their understanding and trust in Bitcoin will grow, and many of them will eventually switch to accepting Bitcoin directly.

You can't directly break away from the Fiat system, especially when most businesses, including raw material suppliers, are still largely living on the fiat system.

So there should be a bridge connecting Bitcoin payment acceptance and the ability to run their Fiat-based business. As the awareness grows, the benefits of directly accepting and holding their Bitcoins will becoke clearer and the switch will happen without anyone pushing for it.

We built a tool that now removes the need to always convert to Fiat, but to hold a stable value asset on the Lightning network.

So merchants can accept Sats, the fiat value of the sats they accpeted will be locked in, and at any point, they can also send Sats worth their locked in Value.

All of this happening right on the Lightning netowrk without creating any new kind of tokens or whatever. Purely a Bitcoin backed stable value asset designed to help Fiat-based businesses confidently accept Sats for payment without worrying about volatility.

This solution is currently implemented on Valet, a lightnweight nSelf-custodial Bitcoin and Lightning wallet. Valet is a fork of the popular Simple Bitcoin Wallet (SBW)

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @supratic 7h

You find any excuse to shill your wallet, eh! Good...

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @standard_sats 6h

Valet is an open-source, self-custodial Bitcoin/Lightning wallet.

There's no shilling. Simply sharing an idea that we know would help advance Bitcoin's use as a medium of exchange.

Everything is completely open-sourced, built right on the Lightning network. It would've been great to see merchants accept Bitcoin directly without worrying about its volatility, but the reality on the ground shows otherwise.

So it is only smart for those of us in the Bitcoin community to find a solution that'd help this cause without compromising a lot of Bitcoin core ethos, and that is what Valet and Fiat channels do.

I implore you to read it, just for knowledge's sake.

Cheers.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @supratic 6h

I know about Valet, I know about open source projects not been rewarded as they should.

Just saying there are better ways to promote great tools like Valet

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @standard_sats 6h

I think you misunderstood my approach as trying to shill Valet.

I was just expressing a point of view on why merchants may not yet accept Bitcoin via p2p, and then highlighting the need for easy on-ramp solutions that should create a foundation for understanding.

I shared Valet because I think it is a step further than a typical custodial solution or outright constant need to liquidate to Fiat for these merchants.

Respect!!

110 sats \ 6 replies \ @unboiled 11h

I'm on the ground here for a few months each year.

The headline isn't far off, but doesn't mention that merchants need to opt in / enable it one store at a time. They have agreed with HQs of big chains to roll it out, but it's still up to the merchants to update their settings for it to work. When I come across a merchant that doesn't have it enabled, I ask management to check in with their HQ on how to turn it on.

So I'd take the 650k with a grain of salt. They added up all the franchisees of the companies they have on-boarded with Scan to Pay, not the ones that have completed btc rails setup yet. It will end up in that ballpark eventually but isn't there yet.

What it also doesn't mention is the other player, Zapper, which is also going through the same process with their ~30k merchants.

Now, having put that number into perspective, this is what it actually looks like:

There are enough merchants accepting btc to largely get by. I can buy groceries, gas, water + electricity, some clothing, our phones and even medicine with btc. More and more restaurants are accepting it through the same providers.

But there are still several key things I haven't found a way to pay with btc yet (most notably any type of insurance.) So there isn't complete coverage yet, but it sure is pretty impressive already.

Wrt maps:

Other than Pick n Pay and a few smaller shops, I also noticed the lack of stores on BTC Map. I found the map from MoneyBadger more useful. They add the ones that have actually been tested by their community.

For context, Zapper, Scan to Pay et al. get their btc rails from MoneyBadger. This is an app that translates the QR payment codes into a LN invoice your wallet understands. You hit send on your wallet, and a second later, the merchant gets a confirmation of your payment.

edit: Just realized they broke their own map. It currently only shows a few outlets from a coffee chain. So much for finding their map more reliable lol.

100 sats \ 4 replies \ @supratic 7h

Are you saying that merchants using Money Bagger get paid in sats just because they opt in? Opt in what? Binance?

From your description sound's like what Blok is doing with Squar, but I struggle to believe it, because in this case, who get the sats (in a Binance account) seems to be Money Bagger not the merchants. MB then pay out Zapper, Scan to Pay probably in fiat. For some obvious reason, ambassadors should avoid onboarding SnapScan stores, guess why.

Don't trust me... read it yourself moneybagger.co.za/ambassadors

Watch out for money badgers in the wild...

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 7h

You are correct. Sats go to MoneyBadger, MoneyBadger settles in fiat.

For some obvious reason, ambassadors should avoid onboarding SnapScan stores, guess why.

SnapScan is a separate QR code payments provider (not Scan to Pay or Zapper), that does NOT currently have an active MoneyBadger integration.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @unboiled 7h

deleted by author

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 7h

That option has to be enabled by the merchant on their device.

This is not accurate. All Scan to Pay and Zapper merchants are automatically enabled. It's only Peach Payments customers that need to opt in.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @unboiled 7h

Thanks for chipping in and correcting that. Learned something new today!

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 8h

Already fixed :)

31 sats \ 3 replies \ @TheBTCManual 9h

In theory the numbers are even higher than reported since most retailers don't even know their payment rails/provider supports it, IE peach, payfast and Zapper and don't interact with the Bitcoin to them it's just a usual digital payment that settles in Rands.

Having done this several times, if you ever ask can I pay in Bitcoin the staff will look at you like a complete goofy! You have to say do you have zapper or look out for one of the payment provider logos

But it does work well, i've used it at stores, resturants, even paying for parking and settlement has never been an issue

Most of the volume is coming direct from exchange wallets who are also offering cash back in USDT for sending BTC but as a non-kyc bitcoin holder you'll get the same experience, (except having to download an extra app)

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @spiderman OP 8h

Sorry, not from South Africa, but does zapper need the coins in its own platform (for the customer), basically locking in the sats?

Or can I (as a cudtomer) use my choice of lightning or on-chain wallet to transfer the sats to an invoice/address?

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @unboiled 8h

You need one app (MoneyBadger) to translate the QR payment code into a lightning invoice. That app hands it over to your wallet of choice.

So in my case, I scan the QR code with MoneyBadger, can add a tip there, and then send the LN invoice to my daily driver wallet, Phoenix. Hit send there, and it's done.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @standard_sats 8h

South Africa is indeed speeding up the use of Bitcoin as a medium of exchange. I'm just a bit curious, and I'd love to ask, do these merchants hold BTC, or do the platforms that help them accept it instantly liquidate them?

If you don't mind, we'd love to get in touch personally. We want to learn more about what is happening on the ground, because we have a solution that would incredibly help the adoption of Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, especially for merchant adoption.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @anon 7h

Different point of view on the details already provided by @unboiled, @TheBTCManual, and @Uppercase_DANIEL:

We have a steadily growing number of merchants accepting Bitcoin Lightning payments directly. Probably not more than 1000 across the country. These merchants are concentrated in the Western Cape province, especially around the Garden Route district. In the small, quaint town of Witsand, there is a strong culture of accepting Bitcoin, making it possible to live on Bitcoin (almost) exclusively. Another small town, Plettenberg Bay, has more than 120 merchants accepting Lightning payments directly.

MoneyBadger, a locally developed LN-to-fiat, QR code based payment bridge, allows users to pay any supported payment QR code via their preferred Lightning wallet. Check out their Xitter for videos on how it works.

One of these supported QR code payment providers, that has integrated MoneyBadger, is Scan to Pay. The 650k+ number originated from their blog post announcing the integration. Apparently the number is a slight exaggeration: it refers to number of payment points. That is, if a large retailer has 10 payment points at a site, that counts as 10 "merchant locations". The number of individual sites is apparently closer to 100k. It's still a massing accomplishment, making life a lot easier for those of us trying to live on sats.

It's important to note that all of these "650k" locations have this LN-bridge enabled by default. Merchants do not need to opt in. From their point of view, nothing has changed. Their invoices are still settled in our local fiat shitcoin.

Another important, and widely used QR code payment provider is Zapper. Merchants also do not need to opt into MoneyBadger, but it appears as if general usage of Zapper is declining, based on the fact that many individual branches of Zapper-enabled franchised has Zapper disabled.

The impact of these two integrations is huge! It enables anyone to pay for anything from fuel, to groceries, clothing to restaurants, cabs to local flights, all in sats.

Peach Payments is an online payments provider with MoneyBadger integrated. This one is different, in that merchants need to opt into accept "crypto payments" for it to be available.

Pick n Pay is a huge local retailer, and the first to integrate MoneyBadger in 2021/2022, when the app was still called CryptoQR. What makes this more interesting is that one can pay things like municipal accounts at Pick n Pay terminals. This is how, with MoneyBadger and via Pick n Pay, South Africans can now pay their municipal accounts with sats!

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @standard_sats 6h

Hi Anon, check out our not-so-new Lightning implementation called "Fiat channels". This solution allows merchants to actually opt in and not need to constantly swap to fiat currencies.

It enables the creation of a stable value asset on Lightning, backed by Bitcoin. It is an option for merchants who are skeptical about Bitcoin's price volatility (almost all merchants, anyway), but still keep them accepting and transacting with Sats on the Lightning Network, and yes, completely anonymously!!

This solution has been integrated into Valet, a self-custodial, Bitcoin/Lightning wallet. Valet is a fork of the popular Simple Bitcoin Wallet (SBW)

You can read more here

https://standardsats.github.io/ https://github.com/standardsats/fiat-channels-rfc https://github.com/standardsats

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 4h

Remove the crap fiat channels and bring back the hosted channels. Only that will make Valet a real BTC wallet and will get more attention.

31 sats \ 3 replies \ @Uppercase_DANIEL 9h

I'm currently in the Garden Route and I get by on bitcoin. Merchants get on boarded at meetups, of which there are many, and they are using btc as a medium of exchange.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @spiderman OP 9h

Happy to hear that man. Do most of those merchants keep the sats or exchange onto fiat like steak n shake (in the US) does?

Do you have any visibility into that?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Uppercase_DANIEL 8h

Most of the merchants I've bought from keep the sats. These are the smaller stores and the weekend markets. Blink is the most widely used wallet. Whenever you are scanning a non-bitcoin based QR code on a point of sale device you can be sure they are using a service to auto convert to fiat. But it's all good. The combo of community and corporate will work itself out, and ultimately onboard more bitcoiners.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @standard_sats 8h

Hi Daniel, we'd love to learn more about the activities going on on the ground. We built Valet with Fiat channels Lightning implementation.

It is a simple wallet tool that'd enable merchants to accept Bitcoin without worrying about Bitcoin's price volatility, hence there'd be no need for auto conversion as they hold a stable value asset on the Lightning network and can transact with Sats at all times.

If you don't mind, we'd love to personally get in touch and share more, especially with the Bitcoin communities in the country.

Checkout Valet and Fiat channels implementation here: https://standardsats.github.io/ https://github.com/standardsats/fiat-channels-rfc https://github.com/standardsats

All are completely open-sourced. If you'd love to get in touch, please send an email to valet.donations@pm.me or join our Telegram community here:https://t.me/StandardSatsCommunity, mention that you're from stacker_news, and someone from our team will reach out immediately.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @DarthCoin 5h

I find more interesting the case for Germany / Austria. Opago's work of onboarding each merchant one by one and explaining them how Bitcoin works is a giant proof of work.

Just check out here how many are: https://stacker.news/OPAGO_PAY/posts

The case in SA is that most of them are using some kind of intermediaries and they have no idea that they accept BTC. That means most of merchants not even get the BTC. Yes you can say that for the spending user is a good experience to pay with sats, but without a proper education for merchants to keep those sats and/or pay their employees/suppliers is almost for nothing.

I could say that is even against the ethos of Bitcoin:

Abstract. A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution.

31 sats \ 5 replies \ @anon 4h

You are missing the forest for the trees. We have on-boarded hundreds of businesses and thousands of people to using Bitcoin directly. Some businesses pay their staff in it, some HODL, others sell immediately, some do a combination of the those.

Yes, using intermediaries is not ideal, but it's very pragmatic. They're catalysts to giving normies exposure to Bitcoin in a "safe" and familiar fashion, which we use to demonstrate, practically, the benefits of dealing directly in Bitcoin.

The intermediaries are a valuable part of a multi-pronged approach to onboard everyone to (eventually) full self-custodial Bitcoin usage, in truly circular economies. It's a process, and it's in progress.

SA is very far removed from Germany's environment of abundance. This is Africa. The same approaches won't work here. We need to be very pragmatic, and can't always afford to be idealistic first.

For instance many poor people save in stable sats. That's most definitely "against the ethos of Bitcoin", but they do so out of pure necessity: they literally cannot afford the fiat-measured volatility of Bitcoin. And by "literally" I mean they can't buy food if the price drops 20%.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @spiderman OP 4h

I agree there. The volatility is a necessary part of the price discovery that is happening and hopefully it will come down to the level of gold. But many poor people cannot afford it.

I see it this way. If I need to spend it in next 30 months, I will not put it in Bitcoin.

But my financial position allows me that 30 months horizon, for some it may be thirty days.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 4h

maybe you can fool those clueless merchants but not Darth...

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @spiderman OP 4h

You are super abrasive and sarcastic 🤣

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 4h

Because I have a sharp mind and a very sensitive