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What do you mean?
Determining policy through public vote, like many states already have mechanisms for. There have been several reformers who have pushed for it at the national level.
California is the canary in the coal mine with this approach. The answer to our problems is not more democracy.
I didn't say it was an answer to our problems. I said it might be coming next.
lol. My mistake. I'm a broken record on California. Every time I visit family in more conservative states and they start ragging on it, I just say, Well, you're on the same path. They're just ten years ahead of you. You're just in denial about it, and that isn't gonna help. You don't even understand why California is the way it is.
I usually give blank stares which is confirms what I'm saying is true.
It probably won't look any more like California's system than the early republics looked like monarchies.
The corruption inherent with representative government is pretty obvious to everyone and the technological limitations that led to it over direct democracy don't really exist now, so I think it's likely to be attempted somewhere and it may catch on.
That's the best case I've heard for direct democracy right there. Not in the positive sense, but in the practical sense. It's also a very common argument for anarchy. Why do we need government to handle a massive amount of our lives when those things could be specialized by individual groups that are really good at them?
When I've mentioned this to people, I've said would you get your taxes done by the guy that changes the oil in your car? Why on earth would we put so much into one institution? Well, there was a time when that made more sense.
I usually give blank stares which is confirms what I'm saying is true.
Are you sure? I think people give blank stares when someone says something incredibly smart they’ve never considered, but also when something is incredibly stupid and they don’t know where to start, and are considering whether it’s even worth arguing about.
Blank stares are not a good indicator of how right you are.
Though I’m aware you’re a better judge of the situation you described.
I’m not sure people are good at knowing whether an argument they don’t know how to counter is smart or stupid.
Mhh, good point. Maybe this is better?
when someone says something they think is incredibly smart, because they've never considered it before
I think we tend to think someone is smart when they surprise us with arguments, especially if it's on a topic we think we've spent a lot of time thinking about.
Blank stares are not a good indicator of how right you are.
Very true. Not my indicator of my rightness. Observing where California was in the 90s vs today and where other states are now. That is why indicator. As well as the direction I have seen these other states move during this time. Pretty easy to track.
I should have phrased it better. What it confirms for me is that they have no clue where things are moving. They are in denial. I do think some have never considered it and that's the blank stare.
I should have phrased it better.
No worries, the internet can be an incredibly judgmental place, and I'm def contributing to it sometimes
What do you think of that?
California has direct democracy on a lot of issues. I am not sure if it's been a net good or net bad.
I can tell you, in California, it's been a net negative. It's bad enough when you have politicians with poor incentives making terrible decisions. It's even worse when you have uneducated, easily manipulated plebs making decisions that are very hard to undo. State of California is massively in debt, in large part due to the proposition system. Then there's high speed rail. Thank you, propositions.
People that can't lead their own lives in a productive and successful way should have no business selecting leaders. When we have a world that has lost its moral compass, the last thing we need is the masses making moral decisions. And that's the problem in my opinion. We have lost our moral compass. This is why I believe religious people are wasting their time when they're focusing solely on politics. They should instead be focusing on their families, on their parish and their communities.
But... that's just my opinion :)
This reminds me of the John Adams quote: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
More democracy won't save society if the people themselves are foolish.
when Adams said it USA was not a democracy. in fact the constitution is about a republic not a democracy
People that can't lead their own lives in a productive and successful way should have no business selecting leaders.
It's a slippery slope, this business of adding filters to who may or may not select. Then it all becomes a game of who controls the filters.
In any event, that is not democracy. Yet I've had countless arguments with mostly lefties but also others about that as they were seriously thinking some form of "voting license" would help democracy.
I don’t know what your definition of democracy but I already hate it.
the franchise should be limited to male property owners
women should not vote because they are too emotional and irrational
felons should not vote
non citizens should not vote
The homeless should not vote
renters should definitely not vote
You missed a big one. Government employees should not be allowed to vote with the exception of those in military service. They have already surrendered almost all their agency.
But truthfully I say no one should vote. Period. Not in the current alignment. I don't care about the other limitations.
Someone else's desire and vote doesn't make it morally right or wrong to use force against me or you.
And yes, the US is a liberal democracy. It is also a republic mostly in name today. But both can be true. There are many forms of democracy and the US is one of them.
I know Democrats like to say it's a democracy as some sort of pride. I'm not. Democracy is a religion many people practice but deny the religiousness. But it is indeed a religion.
The simplest test would be net tax recipients can’t vote.
A reasonable cost of living off other people is not getting to boss them around too.
You are correct, government employees should not vote except for military service!
Church going Christian male head of households.
I don’t know what your definition of democracy but I already hate it.
I don't have a custom definition of democracy. Doesn't mean I like it.
But I dislike your laundry list of demands even more. Goes to show there's always another, even worse system some people will clamor for.
Should non citizens be able to vote?
yes or no
Funny, it was democracy in ancient Greece. And there are always filters. They exist now. Children can't vote. Nor can felons. And supposedly foreign people can't either.
Most countries do allow felons to vote.
And I'm sure you can see the difference in drawing a line between accepted age and citizenship as opposed to filtering out those who "don't know how to vote correctly."
So yes, there have always been filters. You got me on that semantic error.
Most countries allow felons to vote? That's a recipe for third world hellscapes
We do have a lot of felons, certainly enough to make a difference on the margins, and it is an indication of deranged lawmakers.
it’s a terrible idea especially violent felons
it’s not a chicken egg problem
it’s a dumb idea
This explains why the UN is joke
Diplomatic immunity? More like a license to commit felonies
Ancient Athens
if you are going to bash direct democracy and classical Athens
The temptation to exploit the excluded is too strong
Prop 8 passed but was overruled by a federal judge.
Prop 187 passed but was overruled by a federal judge.
A single fucking judge can overrule the voters.
This is fact not my opinion.
edit: it's only a net negative because of voter fraud in CA, have people show their fucking ID and I assure you election results will change.
I think I need to be clear on what I mean by uneducated. I don't mean people that didn't go to college. People that don't have diplomas. I mean idiots. Which includes most people with college degrees. People that just feed on the crap they're sold. People that robotically repeat the bromides their team recites.
The people of California are conditioned and they act in the ways that they're conditioned.
Depends on the implementation. I can imagine versions that are better and versions that would destroy our civilization.
The reason I think it’s plausible is that there’s so much effort going towards shaping public beliefs already and the elites might prefer to cut out the political middlemen.
We may see a move away from representatives towards more direct democracy.