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I mean in the sense of my rights end where yours begin as it is appllied to private property.

I haven't thought a whole lot about this tbh, but wondering what others have to say.

Read or listen to Stephan Kinsella in Against Intellectual Property

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Has physical "property" ever actually existed?

Or are these arbitrary, human-created concepts?

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Property only exists insofar as you can defend your control over it.
The state will gladly help you defend property (because they tax your ownership of it).

The state's incentive is to try and make everything property. Even ideas, thoughts, magic, and things that don't even exist yet (like selling property on the moon, etc.)

Owning things is overrated, better to let someone else (or an LLC) own it. Then they get taxed while you retain total control over it.

Bitcoin removes the separation of ownership and control.

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Property only exists insofar as you can defend your control over it.

This is a good way to frame it. Big agree.

The state's incentive is to try and make everything property. Even ideas, thoughts, magic, and things that don't even exist yet (like selling property on the moon, etc.)

Do you see this as primarily for tax revenue purposes or to help promote competition in the market? It seems like it might be a bit of both.

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The state also likes "property ownership" because it gives them an excuse to use violence and write the rules.

The people like property because it feeds the ego: "I'm important enough to control this"

It has the "side effect" of promoting competition, creating capital from brand-value, etc. It creates moats that make things more "investable". Makes many people rich.

That's how ownership becomes 90% of the law

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I'm not entirely sure what you mean but currently, not universally, at all. Most economic zones have their copyright protection, patent and trademark laws, and admin / enforcement agencies, i.e. the USPTO, CIPO in Canada, EPO/EUIPO in the EU... and so on. Other than that intellectual property is often assigned contractually (e.g. NDAs) and could (but may not) be enforceable in civil law.

I think that you could apply Locke's labor theory of property to IP, after all, IP is supposedly a product of labor, but it would be interesting to hear what (a) an actual lawyer has to say about that and (b) how that stands now that everyone puts shit into free chatgpt accounts - not your GPU not your labor?

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I'm not entirely sure what you mean

I'm trying to figure out if there is an analogy to private property, which is relatively easy to conceptualize. "My cow," has been pretty easy to distinguish between "your cow," for a really long time. Some would venture to call this "natural."

But I don't think the same thing can be said for ideas. E.g. *This arrangement of atoms is exclusively mine, and if you do the same arrangement and try to profit by it, I'm suing your ass," feels relatively recent in history, and as you said, requires a more complex system of arbitration.

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131 sats \ 3 replies \ @justin_shocknet 25 Jul -420 sats
relatively recent in history

organized systems go back to at least the middle ages, when people really started inventing and making complex useful things

conceptually it goes back to ancient greece and china

given the emergence in two completely distinct civilizations in primitive times, that indicates it is part of our human software, and at least adjacent to natural law

assume you're part of a stone age clan of hunters/gatherers, Grug makes wheel, clan benefit from wheel... wheel good. Grug cousin no want hunt, also make wheel...

What does the clan do? tell Grug cousin him need to hunt if wants eat, or give half Grug food?