pull down to refresh
Renewing is free if it's done within the last two days of a VTXO. This is not at all intuitive, but basically a reflection that the server fronts liquidity for you. So some of the server liquidity costs are baked into these maintenance actions.
It’s not intuitive. The fees for just holding a balance and for VTXOs to be refreshed make users have to worry about their balance every refresh cycle.
Ark is still acting as a third party. Even with LSPs a user can reclaim their funds and hit the main chain without needing the LSPs to be active.
I think the reaction is so toxic because developers pitch these projects as scaling bitcoin and lightning under false pretense and sly rent seeking via a third party server.
If Ark is to gain any traction with me the fees need to be fixed. Variable fees just to hold a balance is terrible!
Ark is definitely not made for money to just sit there, but for active use. In that case, the renewals will just happen in the background. Arké has the two wallets for that purpose, one onchain for money at rest, and the Ark one for money that moves.
The Ark model is based on group UTXO sharing, so a third-party facilitator is pretty much inevitable. And Ark servers have unilateral exits so you can get your money out without the server being active. Here's how that works in Arké.
How is an LSP charging for lightning services, or a channel partner charging fees for routing transactions, different than an Ark server charging for the services they provide? They are all economic systems that need to work for everyone involved. The market will decide what services.
From speaking with people who run and use wallets recently, it's actually a problem that some users of wallets like Phoenix only use it once a year. The LSP has to front liquidity that just sits there for a one-time time fee. May not be sustainable or scalable, and the users are probably better off being onchain.
As far as toxicity, I find the largest source of that coming from people like justin and darth with their unhinged rants. I wish they could take a more objective look at things.
Anyhow, solving global permissionless payments is a pretty insane undertaking. Hope we find some solutions that work well.
Ark is definitely not made for money to just sit there, but for active use. In that case, the renewals will just happen in the background.
At what cost? And what time frame?
As far as toxicity, I find the largest source of that coming from people like justin and darth with their unhinged rants. I wish they could take a more objective look at things.
No they are just calling ark out for what it is. I never liked ark from the start because the idea of a UTXO disappearing sounds dumb to me. Calling it a VTXO makes it sound like an affinity scam. Fiat money doesn’t need a random refresh to be used. And if this ark solution is suppose to be better than fiat right? If not then whats the point? Like does Ark ever think of the man in the coma? Plus the whole “they can hold an on chain balance” doesn’t fly with me.
At what cost? And what time frame?
Arké does them automatically for free when the VTXOs are in the last 2 days of their life cycle (which is 28 days). It sends you a notification and you just need to open the app. Still looking into ways to make this smoother without any other third-party involvement.
a UTXO disappearing
Don't think anyones says that the UTXO disappears. It's always there, we just have a shared state "on top of it". Similar to how lightning channel state works (or any offchain protocol).
But it's all good if you don't like Ark. I am also super critical of new layers and it happens rarely that I come around to them, especially not without proper due diligence.
It sends you a notification and you just need to open the app
And if I miss that notification poof my VTXOs go bye bye? lost forever and you seriously want people to use this?
But it's all good if you don't like Ark. I am also super critical of new layers
Comments like this is why Darth and Justin trash you. Stop calling it a layer of Bitcoin. It’s an expensive server looking to rent seek people’s UTXOs if the Ark folks were honest about this maybe the bashing wouldn’t be so harsh. And this is coming from a stacker who gets bashed by Darth all the time for doing fiat things.
And if I miss that notification poof my VTXOs go bye bye? lost forever and you seriously want people to use this?
And if you don't pay attention to your lightning channel, your channel partner can broadcast an old state and take your funds. Is this so different?
Comments like this is why Darth and Justin trash you.
Maybe a good time to wrap things up here. Have a good weekend.
Is this so different?
Yes very different.
A watchtower that doesn't have access to your funds can protect your funds for you. You can pay them for it, you can swap watchtowers services etc.. If you are serious about your money it's protected by at least one watchtower.
An ark server takes no risk stealing your funds, a lightning partner takes a big risk.
Nah the Ark server can choose not to refresh then poof bye bye VTXOs. Like what happens to the VTXO after you fail to renew it?
Plus when I used arke I couldn’t even send a 1 sat payment to myself. And the fees were ridiculous! The fact my VTXOs expire and I need to pay a fee based on how much I have is terrible design for money. Like I said I rather use fiat then Ark.
Yes it’s massively different. The node runner has the responsibility of keeping his node online and using watchtowers if he so wishes to protect himself from a bad actor.
Meanwhile Ark VTXOs just disappear because I didn’t refresh. Because the third party sever has it baked into its protocol that money expires. Everyone knows this idea of vanishing money is stupid but cope through it because they think this is sound engineering.
channel partner charging fees for routing transactions, different
Lightning Routing is symmetric you dullard, the fees you earn by routing offset the ones you pay
Lightning is free
unhinged rants
I am objective and that's why your butthurt, Ark is obviously a scam
It's not like lightning is perfect
Lightning is emergent of real constraints, not this scam theater
with LSPs having to lock up liquidity
basically a reflection that the server fronts liquidity for you
Lightning doesn't lock up liquidity, LSP's are an anti-pattern... Lightning is literally just re-using your own on-chain transactions
two complementary and interoperable systems
Lightning is an open network, Ark is a closed network that bridges to it because it's trusted centralized trash that has no alternative... see above.
Lightning is emergent of real constraints, not this scam theater
Thanks for testing Arké. Ark is so young, that we'll have to see how fees pan out once there is more usage and ideally multiple competing servers, so I would not assume that those values are set in stone.
I added a "Fee summary" view into Arké, where you can see the breakdown of how much you spent on sends and on those internal actions like refreshes, with the explicit goal that it's easy to compare your actual costs to other solutions. I think that's the real test. And I wish other wallets would have this to, so we could put them side by side.
Renewing is free if it's done within the last two days of a VTXO. This is not at all intuitive, but basically a reflection that the server fronts liquidity for you. So some of the server liquidity costs are baked into these maintenance actions.
Not sure where all the hate comes from in the main post. It's not like lightning is perfect with LSPs having to lock up liquidity for long times and users having to deal with costly channel operations. Maybe we're just used to those.
Ideally we end up with two complementary and interoperable systems here that allow for more people to use bitcoin in ways that work for them. I find that Bark is the most serious attempt at this. But we shall see...