Below I am starting the book club, as promised previously. It has probably taken longer than I originally led on. I expect that this can be forgiven. Whether you took up the challenge or not, there may be something for you in the following post. I have made an effort to give some original thoughts, followed by a character list and book summaries. As mentioned before, I am reading a hard copy of the translation of W.H.D. Rouse, but I can also recommend the digitized version of the translation of A.S. Kline.
leading themes and ideas
- post-war society leads to excess and decay
- culture, values, family, country -- all need to be defended by their inheritors
- the most commonly held belief is not always the correct one
Commentary
The first three books show how Telemachos has been living and responding to the apparent death of his father, Odysseus. Unbeknownst to Telemachos, his father is lost at sea, dealing with cyclops, and upsetting Poseidon in the meantime. With the help of other greek heroes (Achilles, Agememnon, Nestor, Menelaus etc.), Odysseus led the Achaeans to victory at the battle of Troy, and since then, things have not been going so well back home. This is the setup for the poem.
This is a story of what happens in the aftermath of war, when a great society produces heroes that defend its culture and norms against outsiders, and how, despite their victory on the battlefield, this same culture must be defended in their absence. This is seen at the outset, when the gods discuss what has become of the house of Atreus, whose son, Agememnon, finds himself the victim of Agisthos. The latter is eventually murdered by Agememnon's own son, Orestes, in an act of revenge for the murder of his father and the destruction of his household. Zeus laments the fact that, although they have brought this terrible fate upon themselves, men continue to hold Zeus to account. Wherever the fault lay, the poem tries to reckon with the phenomenon where society grows weak in the absence of the warriors who will defend their culture.
As the drama of the poem ensues, it is revealed how political infighting led the Achaeans to split up after Troy, leaving Agememnon and Odysseus away from their homeland. In the latter's absence, his wife Penelope and his son Telemachos have been left to defend what is left of his household. Suitors consume Odysseus' wealth, as they loiter, courting Penelope.
So far, I have taken the following from the poem, summarized in a few sentences:
- A great culture, such as the Greeks had, will produce great warriors, in whose absence its greatness will quickly fall to shambles.
- There will always be those willing to feast on the spoils bought by the sweat and blood of another person's brow
- Even when an entire population believe one thing, it may not be true. Truth is not easily discerned, but found out through persistence, struggle and adventure.
So, to you, reader of Epic poetry, I ask the question:
- Where do you see yourself on this cycle (i.e. good times --> weak men --> bad times --> strong men?)
- Is there an analogue in modern culture to the suitors feasting on Odysseus' wealth?
Reading notes:
key characters
- Odysseys: a great warrior from Ithica. Never returned from the battle of Troy, in which he earned his stripes as a hero.
- Telemachos: the son of Odysseus.
- Penelope: the wife of Odysseus. Awaiting Odysseus' return.
- Suitors: men gathered in Ithica, enjoyers of Odysseus' house and belongings, as they vie for Penelope's hand in marriage.
- Zeus: Father of the gods. Feels let down by mortal men because of what happened in the aftermath of the battle of Troy concerning Agememnon.
- Aigisthos: killed Agememnon and married his wife. Is then killed by the latter's son, Orestes.
- Agememnon: in the aftermath of the battle of Troy, did not wish to sail home, for fear of displeasing Athena. He splits from Diomedes and Nestor, and stays in Troy
- Athena: Zeus' daughter. Favors Odysseus, intervenes for him so as not to see his house come into ruin
- Poseidon: god of the seas
- Mentes/Mentor: Athena in the form of a man, advises Telemachos in Ithica and in Pylos.
- Aigyptios: Wise councilman, blesses Telemachos
- Nestor: son of Neleus, king of Pylos.
Book Summaries:
Book I
These men amuse themselves with music and song, freely, since they consume another’s wealth without repayment, one whose white bones are tumbling in the waves, or rotting in the rain on some far shore
--Mentes.
Zeus and Athena meet on Olympus. Lament Agememnon's murder and betrayal by Aigisthos. Athena descends from Olympus to intervene into the affairs of Telemachos, to keep him from a similar fate. His father, Odysseus, suffers the ire of Poseidon, who keeps him from returning home against the will of the other gods. Suitors, who think Odysseus is dead, harass Penelope and Telemachos, and take advantage of the latter's good manners. No one really knows whether Odysseus has died. Telemachos answers Mentes that he does not stop the suitors from courting his mother for the dread of not knowing what has come of his father. Before transforming into a bird to depart, Athena rouses Telemachos to gather the lords together and order them to stop, and moreover, that he should go out in search of his father.
Book II
‘My lords, my Suitors, though Odysseus is dead and you are eager for me to marry, have patience till I complete this work, I do not want it wasted, this shroud for noble Laertes, ready for when pitiless death’s cruel end overtakes him: since I fear some Achaean woman of this land would blame me, if he who won great wealth lay there without a shroud.’
--Penelope
Telemachos assembles the lords of Ithica and makes his case, demanding that and end be put to the suitors' behavior. Antinous rebukes him, saying that Penelope has tricked them for the past three years, by saying she would choose a husband when the finishes weaving the shroud of Odysseus' father, Laertes, which she would work on during the day only to unravel the work she had completed under the darkness of night. Zeus sends an omen portending the destruction of the suitors. Athena again urges Telemachos to go in search of his father, provisions a ship and a crew for him, and even afflicts the suitors in Telemachos' home with drowsiness. Telemachos sets sail for Pylos in search of news of his father.
Book III
Telemachos arrives at Pylos, where the people all pay sacrifice to the gods. Telemachos and Mentor make an offering to Poseidon, in Nestor's name. Telemachos appeals to Nestor, who also fought at Troy, to give news of what happened to Odysseus. He reports that the latter was caught in the middle of a feud between Menelaus, who wished to depart after the battle of Troy, and Agememnon, who feared the angering the gods, and wished to wait. Nestor and Odysseus went with Menelaus, leaving Agememnon behind. In a moment of hesitation, however, Odysseus turned back to join Agememnon. Nestor and Menelaus sail from Troy together and in the meantime, Aigisthos overtakes Agememnon, killing him and taking his wife for marriage. Nestor urges Telemachos to look on the heroism of Orestes, who took revenge against and murdered his father's murderer, Aigisthos. He tells Telemachos he needs to visit Menelaus for news of what came of Odysseus. Nestor offers Telemachos his men and ships, his hospitality, they sacrifice a heifer to Athena, and set off at dawn.
My kids and I are listening to Literature and History's 3 part series on The Odyssey. Not the same as reading the poem, but very accessible and well done.
I really resonate with the strong men -> good times -> weak men - > bad times cycle. It feels so right. And yet, I wonder if it is a lie.
I suspect the civilization cycle of decay and rebirth is only accurate when we think we are living in a time of decay. By definition, what came before must have been better. The decay is somewhat impossible to prove, because measuring against the past is difficult. I doubt the strong men like to think that they are building a society that is doomed to weakness and impermanence.
Which part of the good times -> weak men -> bad times -> strong men cycle would you prefer to inhabit?
As a model it would explain a lot, which makes it a convincing model. Being convincing doesn't make it true though. If it is a lie, the fact that people are quick to buy into it makes it a good lie, and good lies usually come out of what we want to believe is true. I think like you pointed out. It might be hardwired into us to believe we are always coming out of hard times, and must be strong to rebuild, because--well--it fits with what most people want to believe is true.
Personally, I want to believe it. Look at how particularly disastrous the world that I and other zoomers will inherit. Not to exclude millenials, but I believe they might have been a little more fortunate. On the one hand, it is understandable for the "haves" to want to check-out and abdicate responsibility, rest on their laurels and retire, while those that are more power hungry work to entrench what gains they were able to make in their lives (weak men making hard times?). On the other hand, what is @denlillaapan known to say....I don't agree with him fully, because if I were in the boomers' position, I would glad to rest on my laurels. I would also be glad to never retire, because I like what I do, but I am pretty sure that whatever I did, there would be people that want to criticise me.
All of that's to say that I think these cycles are constantly in motion. In prior times, there might have been more semblance of a general trend that indicates which point it was, but now, everything is way too fragmented. I blame the media by which we get our information about the world.
My younger sister is young enough to be considered a zoomed, I think. And she does have a much less optimistic outlook on life than I do
But I try to remind her that in a way she lives in a golden age: any information we want is instantly available. I remember the horrors of my childhood where we couldn't make a specific kind of Christmas cookies because no one could find the recipe card. Perhaps we were a little stupid, but I think most of the world felt this way. Or the absolutely awful 3-4 week wait for anything ordered by mail. Or traveling with paper maps, no google maps. Maybe I have swigged too heavily on the cool aid, but I feel that we are living in a shocking time of advances. There are ugly sores too, but it is a step change from my childhood.
I hope my words don't sound like boosterism, because it's not like I think it's all roses, but on net I think things have actually improved from how they were in the early 2000s.
Fair enough. I don't ruminate too much on it.
Not sure I buy it. The things you mentioned are small conveniences. Owning nothing and being happy, maybe. Most people my age want to own homes, start families. Having a LLM therapist feels like a pretty weak consolation for not being able to realize these dreams.
I don't think you necessarily have. From your perspective you might think I'm entitled for feeling like I deserve more.
Yes. I agree, though I'm not sure that necessitates future prospects getting any better. We do have bitcoin.
I don't think it's a lie. The cyclical theory is too well represented in all sorts of historic and ancient literature to think it isn't a part of the human condition.
I think a better claim is: It's not obvious which part of the cycle we're in.
The strong men are usually building up from the ruins of bad times.... and it might not be obvious to them, in the moment, that they are the strong men building a better future. They inhabit the world where weak men are still present, and the effects of their weakness are still felt. They might think that they are still in the cycle of decay, even as they plant the seeds of rebirth.
(I'd like to think of us bitcoiners as possibly being in that camp... a bit hubristic of me, I know)
Yes! I'm fact I think the strong men might not be strong men if they feel like they are strong men. For times to be hard enough to produce strong men, they need to probably feel pretty awful.
I don't think the privates in the trenches of WWI or on the beaches of WWII felt like strong men (see Catch 22 or Storm of Steel). It seems much more likely that the men always feel like they are struggling.
Thanks for the summary. Reading your commentary, I was struck that the recent Christopher Nolan film didn't seem to convey that message. It did try to convey something about the deterioration of society, but I don't think it drew the line to the absence of strong men. That's not a preferred narrative of Hollywood, I imagine.
Thanks for reading it. From what I have heard (I did not watch it yet), Nolan's film attempted to recast the history and narrative to not be so sexist, which is a reach. Women could not be citizens, and therefore they probably had little agency outside of the household.
I hadn't heard any issues pertaining to sexism. The movie wasn't woke by any stretch, and Penelope was appropriately portrayed as pretty powerless in a world dominated by men.
But the movie also tied the deterioration of society to Odysseus's war crimes in Troy (and his betrayal of their trust via the Trojan Horse.) I'm pretty sure that the original poem doesn't draw that connection, and that in the original, the Trojan Horse was seen as a brilliant tactic rather than a war crime.
I was misremembering Emily Wilson's commentary, in which she seems to say it is too sexist.
Watching zappers chase sats on here reminds me of the suitors in Telemachos' house.
The suitors also came for free food and free wine because Odysseus was away. They were not building Ithaca, they were just eating it.
Same on SN now - many don't come for the ideas, they come for the sats. Zap-begging, comment-farming, shitposting for 6 sats.
But just like in the Odyssey, the house has to be defended by its inheritors. If we only chase sats, we lose the culture. If we defend the culture - good posts, real commentary like this read-along - the sats will follow anyway.
Stack culture > stack sats.
Great start to the book club, looking forward to Book IV.