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2761 sats \ 3 replies \ @pillar 14 Apr 2023
Completely agree. It blows my mind how some people don't spend sats when they have the chance "because they want to have bitcoin, not dollars".
Well, fuck, I concur. But if you have an easy way to turn BTC to USD and viceversa, why not Spend & Replace? This helps promote adoption.
These people hoarding BTC that hard as if they were Gollum might find themselves in the future having millions in value but having no use for it because we didn't manage to make a free, black, circular economy before the governments went full authoritarian with CBDCs and against Bitcoin.
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67 sats \ 2 replies \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
in the advent of governments going full authoritarian with CBDC and against Bitcoin - "Gollum approach" is still rationalized, see comments around... :)
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1117 sats \ 0 replies \ @tbonesteaks 14 Apr 2023
also, Gollum is the one who ends up destroying the ring in the end….
I see a future where bitcoin horders end up destroying all CBDCs while losing all their own bitcoin in the process.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @samuelorji47 14 Apr 2023
More than half of the world’s central banks are exploring or developing digital currencies
Central bank digital currencies (CBDCs) are digital versions of cash that are issued and regulated by central banks. As such, they are more secure and inherently not volatile, unlike crypto assets.
While some may assume that CBDCs are a new concept, they have in fact been around for three decades. In 1993, the Bank of Finland launched the Avant smart card, an electronic form of cash. Although the system was eventually dropped in the early 2000s, it can be considered the world’s first CBDC.
But not until recently has research into CBDCs proliferated globally, prompted by technological advances and a decline in the use of cash. Central banks all over the world are now exploring their potential benefits, including how they improve the efficiency and safety of payment systems
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988 sats \ 3 replies \ @Monotone 14 Apr 2023
Everyone decides for himself
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351 sats \ 0 replies \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
yes, everyone decides for himself, if Satoshi's child should expand towards hyperbitcoinization or not...
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100 sats \ 1 reply \ @clr 14 Apr 2023
Of course everyone decides for themselves. Nobody is trying to force anything. It's just a wake up call.
The point is that if you don't exercise spending bitcoin now, maybe you won't be allowed to do it the day you want to spend your bitcoin savings.
It's like the muscles: use them or lose them. If you don't exercise now, you won't have muscles when you need them.
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5 sats \ 0 replies \ @Monotone 14 Apr 2023
I regularly spend a small amount of sats on various services, like vpn, top up my phone number. But it is in sats that the expenses are less than I regularly stack
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334 sats \ 0 replies \ @xanny 14 Apr 2023
Since when was it one or the other?
I have two wallets on my Ledger: one for HODLing, one for spending.
I also have LN wallets, all for spending.
Much as with fiat you have a spending account and a savings account, you can do the same with Bitcoin.
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367 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 14 Apr 2023
I spend sats everyday. I get sats everyday. Some days more outflows than inflows other days Vice versa. I HODL some sure but I’m always looking for ways to spend!
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234 sats \ 17 replies \ @kr 14 Apr 2023
i don’t think this is the way to go.
people who buy bitcoin are not buying it so they can turn around and spend it. they want to protect themselves against inflation, take control of their money, opt out of the fiat system, etc…
instead, i think it’s 100x easier to convince someone to spend bitcoin if they’ve earned it rather than bought it.
the stakes tend to be smaller, it’s a pain to take funds off a lightning app and send it to cold storage, and with enough merchants accepting bitcoin on lightning i think many would prefer to use the extra sats they’ve earned over their cold storage funds… maybe even over their fiat funds too.
earn + spend + replace.
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515 sats \ 2 replies \ @clr 14 Apr 2023
I agree that people who earn bitcoin instead of buying it are more likely to spend it. Two points regarding bitcoin buyers/savers:
- Why do they still have fiat savings left?
- They are not "saving" bitcoin, they are deferring spending their bitcoin. The point of the OP is that if we don't spend bitcoin as often as we can right now, the day might come when we cannot spend our bitcoin anywhere ("Sorry sir, we only accept cards or CBDC. Cash is only accepted for payments below $50 and will be soon phased out.").
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @kr 14 Apr 2023
i hadn’t really considered the urgency in your second point, that’s definitely a risk.
i think folks on all sides of this thread want to see widespread merchant adoption, i just think the path to get there requires widespread earning first… though i hope others try different strategies too.
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207 sats \ 0 replies \ @clr 14 Apr 2023
It seems like a chicken and egg problem. Everything is necessary. Spending, earning, saving, entrepreneurs creating awesome products, etc.
A few days ago I was chatting with someone who had been to El Salvador twice in the past two years. He said that the second time there was less bitcoin acceptance among large hotel chains. The hotels said that there was not enough people paying with bitcoin, so they removed the option to save the monthly fees they were being charged for the service. However, small merchants seemed more receptive to getting paid in bitcoin, according to him.
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208 sats \ 0 replies \ @xanny 14 Apr 2023
Couldn't agree more.
A circular Bitcoin economy is the way.
This is why I'm excited for P2P marketplaces using LN payments. It will allow anyone to sell any good or service for sats.
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27 sats \ 12 replies \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
earn + spend + replace is good, too
as a side note:
people who buy bitcoin to protect themselves and don't even think for a second about protecting bitcoin itself
by healthy expansion, i.e. by spreading it as much as they can - are very shortsighted, unfortunately...
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113 sats \ 11 replies \ @kr 14 Apr 2023
perhaps some people are being shortsighted, but the battle to convince those people to spend is a waste of time imo.
after all, they have bitcoin… the best asset for escaping people who want to tell you how to spend your own money.
the argument of “you should spend the bitcoin you bought” may be a good one, but to holders it comes across as “let me tell you how you should use your own money”.
giving people east tools to spend their SN rewards, zaps, or gaming earnings seems much more promising. many of these folks are not hardcore bitcoiners either, and may not even care about storing wealth… they just want to use the money they earned.
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57 sats \ 10 replies \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
it's not: “you should spend the bitcoin you bought”
it's rather: "you should circulate a single percent of your bitcoin stash"
for the sake of Bitcoin
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60 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 14 Apr 2023
You don't have to circulate your bitcoin if no one asks for it.
I know what you are getting at.
I ask to be paid only in bitcoin when I know the people have bitcoin.
I give discount to people who have no bitcoin yet to get them interested.
I think that's more the way to go then to come on SN and "demand" people to spend their bitcoin.
We want to save in BTC as much as we can because we still can.
But in general, we can also spend and replace if I wanted to pay with fiat anyway just to let the merchant know: Hey, I am willing to pay in bitcoin if required.
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57 sats \ 1 reply \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
ok,
according to Metcalfe's law is better to even sacrifice 5% of own stash - if it only double the number of users - effectively you save this way as much as you can, and not the way of Gollum's approach...
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62 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 14 Apr 2023
How can I increase users if someone is so new they can't or don't even want to accept bitcoin? Asking someone like this to pay them in bitcoin just makes them believe you want to scam them.
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15 sats \ 6 replies \ @kr 14 Apr 2023
sure, but it’s still telling people what they “should” do, and Bitcoin holders are highly averse to spending their btc.
the people earning sats already want more things they can do with their money… you don’t have to change their minds, just give them the tools to spend.
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0 sats \ 5 replies \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
let them understand this simple Metcalfe's law, at last... ;)
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58 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 14 Apr 2023
I think you misinterpret what this law says. Does the law say:
"You need to spend your bitcoin to increase adoption?"
To my understanding, no, it doesn't. All it says is this:
-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe%27s_law
That's it. Nothing about what increases adoption.
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57 sats \ 3 replies \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
it's harder to increase the number of "connected users" if current users have the high averse to spending...
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383 sats \ 5 replies \ @iguano 14 Apr 2023
I guess everyone is free to use bitcoin as they wish, right?
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118 sats \ 4 replies \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
if you want to use bitcoin in the future, I guess you wish it also to expand, right?
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199 sats \ 3 replies \ @iguano 14 Apr 2023
this is a complex talk, everyone define what makes bitcoin valuable.
you dont need to force things over other people.
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
"applied Metcalfe's law to Bitcoin, showing that over 70% of variance in Bitcoin value was explained by applying Metcalfe's law to increases in Bitcoin network size"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe%27s_law
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114 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 14 Apr 2023
And where does it say that spending your bitcoin is what is driving adoption?
Instead of what @kr mentioned: Building stuff that bitcoiners want.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @clr 14 Apr 2023
I believe both are correct. It's not one or the other, but both.
If not, why are entrepreneurs always moaning for more money? Why do they fall prey to the fiat VC predators instead of building stuff for bitcoiners? I say this has something to do with not enough bitcoiners spending. Of course, it's also right that bitcoiners should not settle for subpar quality and spend just for the sake of "supporting" even if they get a shitty product/service in return.
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183 sats \ 0 replies \ @Louferlou 14 Apr 2023
Agree
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367 sats \ 3 replies \ @TheBTCManual 14 Apr 2023
Lol and why are we telling other people what to do with their purchasing power?
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8 sats \ 2 replies \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
to amplify?
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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 14 Apr 2023
Fair enough, lol maybe im just jaded
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano 14 Apr 2023
there is no real proof of this "spend and replace" thing to increase the price of bitcoin.
There are other "spend and replace" coins like BCH and LTC and as you can see, it didnt work for them.
The adoption is ongoing, price is the key to this, nobody will accept bitcoin if is not valuable. removing liquidity from market by HODLING has proved to be very effective.
At the end, the guy who spend, and the guy who HODL are increasing adoption both in their own way, no need to force a way of use. everything we are doing is helping.
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200 sats \ 0 replies \ @samuelorji47 14 Apr 2023
when they have the chance, don't spend sats "because they want to have bitcoin, not dollars."
Oh, dammit, I agree. Therefore, why not use Spend & Replace if there is a simple way to convert BTC to USD and vice versa? This encourages adoption.
Because we failed to create a free, black, circular economy prior to the governments going full authoritarian with CBDCs and against Bitcoin, these individuals who are hoarding Bitcoin so fervently as if they were Gollum may find themselves in the future with millions of dollars in value but no use for it.
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200 sats \ 0 replies \ @premitive1 14 Apr 2023
this video inspired me a lot
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121 sats \ 0 replies \ @SharkEnvyInternational 14 Apr 2023
Absolutely, here in Honolulu we pay a company to make t shirts for us, we pay in SATS, then turn around and sell online both wholesale and retail we use ibexpay on a shopify site. We ONLY accept Bitcoin we do NOT accept credit cards.
And then we buy raw materials from other suppliers paying them in SATS, and over and over. Basic, common sense if we truly want "adoption". Grassroots level is easy it is basically participating or not. You can start with just one item, one. Price it in SATS that's a start.
I'm not trying to promote our site, I'm just saying take the first step, even if you do NOT have a website. Consider whatever your main item is and price it SATS.
Resources:
Get an account with ibex
FYI you do NOT have to transfer back to fiat if you do not want to, you can simply have ibex send automatically every 24 hours to a designated wallet of your choice,
The issue is how long do you want to keep feeding into fiat, or do you REALLY want to build SATS and use SATS for buying and selling goods B2B or B2C.
https://ibexpay.ibexmercado.com/login
Convert USD price to SATS
A quick baby steps way to help someone understand how to get a reference from USD pricing to SATS.
https://www.kraken.com/learn/satoshi-to-usd-converter
Yes prices will fluctuate, so what Just do it.
Big Thanks to all of the Bitcoiners that have helped me from day one, now I have to help someone some how.
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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @tomlaies 14 Apr 2023
Thank you.
A lot of people who scream "hodl" are not actually for Bitcoin as a currency for the future. They want to pump the BTC-USD exchange rate which is showing an underlying fiat mindset. And it's harmful to our noble goals.
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100 sats \ 6 replies \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
Bitcoiners, time to grow up: SPEND & REPLACE
"Spend and Replace
This also brings me to my last point. Yes ‘HODL’ is important and right, but to drive Bitcoin adoption and because it's just an amazing feeling, we have to start spending Bitcoin at some point. Why should people accept Bitcoin when no one is paying with it anyway? So my new principle is SPEND and REPLACE. After a while of hodling, spending Bitcoin may feel a bit unusual at first, but trust me, it's fucking nice after a while, thinking of transacting without a centralized intermediary and without coercion of the state. I mean, Bitcoin was created to be used and not to be stored in some (virtual) vault until you are dead, like gold."
#161607
SPEND & REPLACE is spreading Bitcoin around - we MUST do that by default!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtcguI6WwAA2lD2?format=jpg&name=900x900
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533 sats \ 0 replies \ @ez 14 Apr 2023
I think it will happen naturally as sooner or later quality things only be purchasable with bitcoin
but good call to action overall, there are many cool products and things in bitcoin that are gravely underfunded
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126 sats \ 4 replies \ @quark 14 Apr 2023
I don't think it is a good idea to say to someone to grow up and tell them what to do with their bitcoin. The economy will evolve naturally and adoption will happen. It also depends on regulation. Many people are not spending it because it creates a headache for taxes each time to spend.
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
As Peter Todd wrote somewhere here: we have got only a single chance to fix money. There won't be any further.
And we are definitely in the middle of: "then they fight you" Gandhi's phase (SEC and US govt anti-Bitcoin crusade, with cut-off banks, etc)
It looks like there is non-zero risk we may not succeed to the phase: "then you win"...
Due to headache.
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1 sat \ 2 replies \ @ek 14 Apr 2023
I would like to agree with you but I think you are going a bit overboard.
If people just demand to be paid in BTC, that will also just fix this "spending issue".
So no, bitcoin won't lose just because not enough people spend it. Not enough people ask to be paid in bitcoin.
Basically this: #164622
The way you phrase your comments here sound like: "my way or the highway"
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @jk_14 OP 14 Apr 2023
people new to Bitcoin - will ask to be paid in bitcoin only if they see it's utilized this way by people already having it ("ok, let's try it, then...")
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101 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 14 Apr 2023
I think people new to bitcoin have a lot of stuff to learn and get used to before caring about this.
I would consider getting paid in bitcoin to be one of the last steps to become a "true bitcoin maxi".
Btw... we are on SN. Aren't we spending our sats already with tipping?
In fact, I just spent one sat to post this comment.
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50 sats \ 0 replies \ @franzap 14 Apr 2023
There is a clear incentive to spend (& replace!) BTC and that is privacy, if done well. Fallback to cash or Bitcoin Co Visa card. I avoid as many payments with a KYC fiat card as possible
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1 sat \ 0 replies \ @dustin 14 Apr 2023
Maybe an unpopular point of view, but in some places every spend is a taxable event. Folks that wish to be legally compliant might be more hesitant to spend when each spend is another line item to track on your IRS 8949 form.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @samuelorji47 14 Apr 2023 freebie
Of course, each person makes their own decisions. Nothing is being pushed or forced. Just a wake-up call, really.
The idea is that if you don't practice spending bitcoin now, you might not be able to do it tomorrow when you want to use your bitcoin funds.
Use them or lose them, just like with muscles. You won't have the muscles you need if you don't start working out today.
Totally concur. The fact that some people choose to hold onto their money when given the choice "because they want to have bitcoin, not dollars" astounds me.
Oh, dammit, I agree. Therefore, why not use Spend & Replace if there is a simple way to convert BTC to USD and vice versa? This encourages adoption.