Phoenix Wallet - STAY AWAY \ stacker news ~bitcoin

628 sats \ 33 comments \ @franzap 22 Apr 2023 bitcoin

I moved a significant amount of my sats from BlueWallet to Phoenix. This automatically opened a channel with the ACINQ node.

Today I opened the app to make a payment and I noticed the balance is "0 sat" (when it should be well over 800k).

I tried refreshing, restarting the app, changing wifi, nothing. No message, no warning. Nothing. I tried making the payment - I get an error that I don't have enough funds.

So I then exported the logs to my computer and went through them. I found that the channel had been unilaterally closed more or less at the time I opened the app today, after "htlc timed out".

(The only out of the normal is the last two payments I tried failed, both a few days ago, the first one was logged a few days ago and the second one 1 hour ago, probably when it got the last update.)

I obviously went to fetch the 12 words and check with Electrum that the funds were still mine. That worked.

Now just imagine if this happens to a normie that is being orange pilled. Absolutely terrifying.

So this is not a story about Phoenix rugging me but it's an example of a terrible UX. At least show the fucking on-chain balance.

Phoenix you kick me out without an explanation, now it's my turn. Never using or recommending it again.

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558 sats \ 7 replies \ @TonyGiorgio 22 Apr 2023

I've always felt that their lack of any on chain controls would lead to this. Yes, you can recover with electrum but there's zero indication and come on, it's not like having an emergency on chain sweep function is hard to implement. They do a good job of trying to prevent channel closures though, this is the first I've seen it happen.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @snakedye 22 Apr 2023

it's not like having an emergency on chain sweep function is hard to implement.

You can force close channels.

10 sats \ 5 replies \ @TonyGiorgio 22 Apr 2023

Yes but what happens when you do? Force closing goes back to an on chain address that you have to actually redeem from another wallet like electrum... which is the problem being described here. Not sure what your point is.

1 sat \ 4 replies \ @snakedye 23 Apr 2023

Closing the channel does bring the funds pas on chain and there is exactly a description of what to do in this situation in their FAQ.

https://phoenix.acinq.co/faq#my-channels-got-force-closed-how-do-i-recover-my-money

12 sats \ 0 replies \ @TonyGiorgio 23 Apr 2023

And I'm saying having to do that externally IS the problem. Not hard to put it into the wallet.

1 sat \ 2 replies \ @franzap OP 23 Apr 2023

Because it's totally obvious for anyone to connect "0 sat" with "channel force closed"

1 sat \ 1 reply \ @snakedye 23 Apr 2023

Yes, they should tell you when there's an error. I agree but it's not like the resources are non existent. You have the seed, the FAQ and a way to contact them.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @franzap OP 23 Apr 2023

Because you can connect the dots but newbies cannot.

If they can write "channel closed" to the logs then they can put it in the UI. It's simple, really.

572 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 22 Apr 2023

Crazy timing. I started using Phoenix two weeks ago as my sort of blue wallet replacement, and it has been great. I was actually thinking about doing an SN writeup recommending it!

2500 sats \ 2 replies \ @fanis 23 Apr 2023

I totally understand your point and agree that a newbie confronted to this would totally freak out. But that title!

Telling everyone, newbie or not, to "STAY AWAY' from Phoenix is one of the worst advice I can think of when it comes to mobile Lightning. I and many other people have found Phoenix to be the most reliable non-custodial Lightning wallet out there, including under low bandwidth conditions.

Remember DropBit? One day the balances on all those custodial wallets will be gone or seized, and there will be no restoring the wallet on Electrum.

Alternative title ideas:

How I Lost All My Funds On Phoenix - But They Were Actually Still There
I Thought I Lost My Fund But It Was Just Phoenix BAD UX
The UX Issue That Could Drive New Phoenix Users Crazy!
Why Phoenix Should Implement On-Chain Sweep
Phoenix Should Do Better When It Comes To UX
and so on.

Now, you're right to speak up, given that is could indeed be frightening for newbies, and you did pay for a channel that you never enjoyed to use. And I've seen the discussion around the issue being known since 1.5 years, which I agree should probably have been addressed by now.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @franzap OP 23 Apr 2023

Appreciate your comment. Wrote that title in the heat of the moment and I don't think it's possible to edit it.

But perhaps it does bring the attention to that github issue that nobody seemed to care about. Once github unblocks my account I will comment on there.

No Phoenix devs on SN?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @franzap OP 23 Apr 2023

@k00b feature idea: pay some sats for the ability to edit a title after some time

246 sats \ 1 reply \ @slender_trikes_0c 22 Apr 2023

Sorry to hear of the bad experience. Yes, the app should inform the user of what happened and how to recover. That said, Phoenix is my preferred lightning app, and I will continue to recommend it. In my opinion, it is the perfect middle ground between running one's own node and using a custodial solution.

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @franzap OP 23 Apr 2023

Not saying this will happen to everybody but when it does, it's the worst experience you can have on Lightning: feeling that your money is gone.

63 sats \ 0 replies \ @botsforcash 22 Apr 2023

Just moved out of Muun and was planning to use Phoenix for my LN needs. But this week I saw an updated Zap LN wallet on Fdroid and went for it instead. Did I just dodged a bullet?

63 sats \ 5 replies \ @03365d6a53 22 Apr 2023

so.. funds are safe?

did you raise an issue on the github repo?

5 sats \ 4 replies \ @franzap OP 22 Apr 2023

Yes, funds safe. No github account at the moment. Can I do it without?

156 sats \ 3 replies \ @03365d6a53 22 Apr 2023

My point is, it's free and open source software. No software is bug free. if you've paid (eg casa, unchained) you have a right to rant

otherwise, the right course of action would be to inform the maintainers, in public or private, of your unsatisfactory experience.

so they can fix it.

here is the link: https://github.com/ACINQ/phoenix/issues

this issue looks similar: https://github.com/ACINQ/phoenix/issues/193

51 sats \ 2 replies \ @franzap OP 22 Apr 2023

this issue looks similar: https://github.com/ACINQ/phoenix/issues/193

Is this a joke? A 2 year old bug report that nobody even commented on. Really shows how they care about users' feedback.

And yes I paid them money for a channel I could barely use.

A rant (to which I'm always entitled) is a miniscule reaction compared to the feeling of stolen sats. I'm sorry, zero messaging anywhere about a closed channel is unacceptable.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @03365d6a53 23 Apr 2023

fair. I just think the rant would have more impact if it's aimed at the project team directly.

Phoenix in general is an excellent wallet. I'm sure they would care if they were receiving repeated reports of such incidents.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @franzap OP 23 Apr 2023

True. I will e-mail them.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @faithandcredit 23 Apr 2023

Using phoenix wallet takes a bit of planning and learning but it works well al things considered. I use it myself but dont recommend it to ppl who are just starting out.

12 sats \ 0 replies \ @l0k18 23 Apr 2023

I've never seen this before but yeah it should be showing your onchain balance. It's one thing I prefer about Zap, and why I pair Zap with a btcd full node on Tor on my LAN. It doesn't have a built in Tor client like Phoenix though.

We are still pretty early, most of the wallets are pretty decent now but still easy to see how they can come a lot further yet.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @billiam 23 Apr 2023

What I don't like about Phoenix is that you can't be sure when a channel gets opened when receiving sats where the fee is min 3000 sats each time. I have now 9 channels with a total remote balance of over 200k scattered over the 9 channels and the fees paid have been significant so far. This is not a wallet I would recommend to a newbie.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Louferlou 23 Apr 2023

First time I ever hear about somebody unhappy with Phoenix service. I've been using it for more than 2 years without any issue. The only little problem is an UX one, to explain to normies that in order to avoid paying fees to open a new channel each time you don't have enough inbound, you'd rather open a big one from the start.

Otherwise it's really great, shame you had this bad experience.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Descent 23 Apr 2023

I have never been a fan of Phoenix. Breez at least makes an on chain transaction after closing a channel.

Hopefully you can recover your funds.

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @franzap OP 23 Apr 2023

Thanks, I recovered them easily because I understand Lightning at a technical level. This is a catastrophic experience for a newb.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @iguano 23 Apr 2023

Sorry for your bad experience, but I have more than a year using phoenix, without issues. I think is the best experience so far for a non custodial lightning native wallet. It is so good that I pay their fees without complain.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @franzap OP 23 Apr 2023

Happy for you! I might even consider using it again. But would never recommend it to a newbie.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano 23 Apr 2023

for newbies, muun wallet is hard to beat.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @bitdov 23 Apr 2023

Phoenix is great overall, great experience on my side for several years now.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @pepe78 23 Apr 2023

Sorry, to hear that, but my experience with Phoenix is flawless

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @qu4ntumhe4ling 16 Mar freebie

so far my experience with that wallet was also good, but today happened the same to me and i could see the balance only on electrum. I think the same that this is a no go for newbies and the mainstream. This has to be impoved.