Jameson Lopp: What you should know about the Ledger incident \ stacker news ~bitcoin

@Onions I'm tired of hearing this autistic argument! Stop scaring away the noobs from something that so drastically raises their ability to secure their wealth just because you feel it's not perfect... Of course it can be improved in some way but there's an opportunity cost to everything, and a noob is taking a lot on faith to store their wealth in Math in the first place. -Much less storing it in a hardware device that keeps track of the math for them.

I have a SeedSigner but a lot of my wealth is still saved in Coldcards & Trezors. Why? Because you can friggin' spend from them! That's kind of an important function of money.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Zepasta 15 Dec 2023

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221 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinosphere 15 Dec 2023

it can't be improved.

I'm talking about the process. Yes the process can be improved upon from a HW wallet.

I'd argue that the process for a SeedSigner cannot be improved without adding memory to it. No one wants to add in 12 words each time they go to spend a few sats. The QR code makes it less secure, not more. HW should absolutely be able to remember your PrivKey to avoid these problems!

HW is awesome, I've been using them since the 1st ledger and KeepKey hit the market. I don't use those two any more, for obvious reasons, but the airgapped HW wallets we see today are all pretty awesome, and light years ahead of your process in terms of safety from all angles.

You need to go back and watch that Andreas Antonopoulos video from 2014 about why HW wallets fit in that sweet spot between protecting from outside threats and protecting against ourselves forgetting. (A far more realistic threat.) Seedsigner steps outside of that paradigm a bit.

54 sats \ 17 replies \ @gmd 14 Dec 2023

Well that doesn't sound intimidating at all for newbies :P

99 sats \ 16 replies \ @Zepasta 14 Dec 2023

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655 sats \ 12 replies \ @025738dda8 15 Dec 2023

I am trying to imagine how my mother assemble this... For $50, huh, trezor is almost the same price. If I show this to people I try to orange pill, they would run and scream.

I used to have a similar device in the past, my own custom. I was proud of it. But not anymore. Just another thing to be aware of in my head for nothing. I'd rather buy trezors and give them for free to people who are interested in BTC.

Do you have a real experience when this kind of device was the crucial thing that somehow helped you? Or is it just your imagination?

33 sats \ 6 replies \ @nemo 15 Dec 2023

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0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Zepasta 15 Dec 2023

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99 sats \ 2 replies \ @atitlanio 15 Dec 2023

I ultimately agree with this. I ordered some Blockstream jades and based on their locations I figured they would arrive in a couple days, but it took over a week. Sorry, but where the duck was it then? When it comes to being sovereign with my money and taking into account the desperation of governments to not lose control, how do we ever truly know what lengths they are capable of going or who they can corrupt.

Coldcard has quite a thorough tamper evident system but regardless, catch the wrong mood and your mind can get the best of you with what if's 😅 SeedSigner seems to be the way!

I agree also though with @gmd that while "easy", the non-tech savvy will tune out immediately. You know what else is easy? Taking the integral of a polynomial of any order, yet the sound of it still scares most people away immediately... "Oh I've never been good math"! Who knows though, maybe we're in another era of evolution where survival of the strongest doesn't refer necessarily to physical strength anymore.

P.s. I just paid for 2 meals and groceries in Guatemala today 🚀🚀🚀 suck it first world!

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @gmd 15 Dec 2023

Physician, former software engineer and I got an 800 math SAT back in the day without studying...

...This sounds intimidating AF to me lol 🤷‍♂️

(caveat I'm getting old and less into tinkering)

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1 sat \ 0 replies \ @Zepasta 15 Dec 2023

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33 sats \ 1 reply \ @elysia 14 Dec 2023

Could I use just numbers for a passphrase?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Zepasta 14 Dec 2023

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100 sats \ 4 replies \ @Coinosphere 15 Dec 2023

Don't listen to @Onions, some hardware wallets are absolutely great. He has very high standards in requiring an airgapped signing device, but those make the process of spending the bitcoin that you already have much more complicated than it should be. I'd never suggest one for a newb. Advanced users only.

I've tried many hardware wallets and signing devices. Many are airgapped too. Here's what I'd suggest for a "Relative Newb":

Jade wallet by Blockstream (cheapest & airgapped)
Coldcard (Most security options by far)
Keystone (Best UX by far & airgapped)
Trezor (Good UX & company, but not airgapped.)

Since Jade's UX leaves a lot to be desired it's not great for total newbs... I'd go with a Keystone for that. But Coldcard has soooo many great little security checks that it's hard not to want to keep your coins there once you are more experienced.

It should also go without saying that you will want to back up your seed phrase on metal no matter which option you go with. -And that any passwords you try to remember are for Wallets only, never for the seedphrase itself (25th word). -Those were one of the most horrible ideas in the history of cryptography.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Zepasta 15 Dec 2023

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2012 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinosphere 15 Dec 2023

You do know that stamping your seed onto washers and putting them around a bolt is one of the most recommended ways to keep it in metal, right? How is that overpriced?

And I may understand more than you think. I've been storing coins since 2012. I've tried out 6 HW wallets and a seedsigner. I even tried a brain wallet once but nearly lost that due to having only a human brain with human-level memory recall.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Zepasta 15 Dec 2023

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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinosphere 15 Dec 2023

Blockstream doesn't know I'm a client.

Trezor has BTC-Only firmware. (But I agree they should airgap)

Keystone has BTC-Only firmware too. In fact they have like 4 flavors of firmware to choose from.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 15 Dec 2023

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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @gunson 14 Dec 2023

Lopp uses it as an opportunity to shill his multisig business, but I thinks it's a bit disingenuous to say this is about "single points of failure".

Other solutions like air gapping and simply not shitcoining also fix this.