this is just confusing. having the same symbol for different denominations will cause lots of issues. this is ripe for abuse. what if something in the future, for some reason, really costs 10,000 bitcoin? what if something is 20 sats? even the dollar system has a different symbol for cents, though i feel i usually see that represented as just partial dollars. what a waste of hype
Social consensus is exactly the barrier Bitcoin needs to overcome, everything that helps us get there is worth the discussion.
The definition of one bitcoin as 100m sats is the original mistake here.
Calling 100m of the smallest unit of Bitcoin a satoshi and the smallest unit itself a bitcoin might have been a better choice, or maybe just don't call 100m of the smallest unit anything since we already have names for quantities...
i can get behind this symbol, i also think the unit bias of large numbers is really important to making people excited to hold bitcoin.
nobody wants to give up their life savings just to acquire a small fraction of something… but give them hundreds, thousands, or even millions of sats and they’ll feel richer than ever.
BTC really needs to overcome this unit bias thing.
I think the BTC price ticker which uses the price for a full bitcoin (100M sats) has more impact on this than a currency symbol. Imo, the solution is to make more people aware of Moscow Time.
I think this introduces more problems than it solves to be honest.
“But it sounds weird to call it ‘sats‘ and use the ₿ symbol”
Many have tried to come up with a currency symbol that resembles the word ‘sats‘, but none reached a consensus.
The verdict is in: it‘s either ₿ or none at all. There‘s no second ₿est.
I'll stick with the High Voltage emoji ⚡ since I don't understand why such an attitude should result in consensus if all others before "failed". Also, I am not aware of any currency symbol that tried to resemble the word "sats". ₿ is trying to resemble the word "bitcoin" though. I am only aware of the lightning and the kebab. They are not resembling the word "sats", are they?
1 satoshi is written as 1 ₿, pronounced as "1 satoshi".
Current 1 BTC would be: 100M ₿, pronounced as "hundred million satoshis".
We don't refer to bitcoins the money as "bitcoins" anymore, only Bitcoin the network. Less confusion long term.
No decimals, no 2 types (btc, sat) of denominations, just ₿, pronounced as "satoshis".
₿ does look like the "b" from bitcoin, but it's not a problem that it's actually pronounced "satoshi" because $ has nothing to do with the "dollar" either.
I think this is a reasonable idea, but we're so used to SAT and to the kebab to a smaller degree that many us will resist the change. Also, a handful of people will misunderstand this to be "printing" more bitcoin.
If we adopt this, we need a specific date when most sites switches over, ex. Jan 3, 2025.
Temporarily we could do this to be super clear: 1,000 ₿ (SAT). Then after a year drop (SAT).
If we adopt this, we need a specific date when most sites switches over, ex. Jan 3, 2025.
I don't think we need such coordination (though it'd be ideal, sure). People will send ₿10000 from one wallet and receive 10000 sats on another. Doesn't have to be much more complicated than this.
Unit bias is FIAT mentality (also common scammy rhetoric used by tokens eg. safemoon)
₿ is already assigned to Bitcoin
Why is there a small faction of allegedly Bitcoiners attempting to erase Satoshi from bitcoin? He did a lot for us, so it's only fair that we honor his legacy every time we spend bitcoin.
I suggest staying focused on scaling and building on Bitcoin, rather than politics.
Talk to normies and you'll see unit bias is very real.
₿ is on the Bitcoin logo, but few use it as a currency symbol. Wallets display 'BTC' instead.
"If Satoshi wanted the currency units named after him, he would simply have done it. I think this behavior seems creepy and is harmful to Bitcoin." — gmax, 2019
The BITCOIN logo is used everywhere and there are 21 million of them as cap. The Genesis Block was chosen as the G is the 7th letter. It's also biblical which Nakamoto means in Japanese, "from the book". 3 is a sacred number as masculine, feminine and child or third eye. 3 * 7 = 21 and 2+1 = 3 it's recursive.
Sats is the basic unit because Sat means truth. This is synchromysticism but also not incorrect.
Satoshi is the Awakened Person. Not an accident in pseudo anonymous choice. The man, woman or group behind the persona is not the persona. Satoshi left after the tools were in place and others carried the torch.
It's regressive to redefine what takes a little research in knowledge. The basic unit has been named and in L2 lightning the basic unit is mSats or 1000 mSats = 1 sat. Or 2.1 quintillion parts to the Bitcoin network.
As with many basic concepts people will work hard trying to redefine it instead of learning the basic concept. The truth is already here but people will work hard to obscure it, ignore it or their ego will not accept it.
$ also carries such a negative connotation that represents the opposite of everything Bitcoin stands for. why would we want to associate sats pristine brand image with that?
I think the whole idea is to replace dollars, it would be a funny bit of irony if we replaced the dollar symbols representation with sats. Mission accomplished
Today, 1 satoshi buys 0,22 CRC, 0,36 ARS, and 0,39 NGN. Costa Rica, Argentina, and Nigeria also happen to be countries with growing Bitcoin adoption. A $10000 price tag could mean sats, CRC, ARS, or NGN. In countries like Colombia, where 1 sat parity has been reached (1 sat = 1,68 COP), it's even harder. As we approach hyperbitcoinization, the $ will grow more ambiguous, not less
I was under impression that Bitkit had a separate account for LN and onchain. I tried to verify this, but the software required me to agree to "terms and conditions". Realizing that Bitkit was not built for cypherpunks, I uninstalled it.
I get the issue and the proposal, it has merits. But changing things now will only add more confusion. Lets ₿ be for Bitcoin (as an idealistic symbol) and agree on something else for sats.
Using the same symbol for both (or change course midway) will only create a mess.
if you get charged ₿10000 for a coffee, will you be confused if the cost you half a billion dollars? there's way less room for confusion than it initially looks!
Pennies have a cent symbol in many different currencies. This is normal, so no one confuses the bigger with the smaller amounts.
This whole argument sounds like you don't believe bitcoin will be important enough one day for humanity to learn the smaller amounts' symbol. That's kinda sad.
we're actually so bullish that we believe 1 BTC will be worth millions, and few will be wholecoiners. no one will need to learn decimals at that point.
we want future bitcoiners to look at their balances and feel like they're making progress by saving ₿ 20 000, not that they're poor because they only have 0.0002 BTC.
https://satsymbol.com is the better option.
The only argument against that one is that it somehow looks like the symbol of a famous shitcoin? Since when does Bitcoin care about what shitcoins do?
Anyhow, there are more important things to focus on than a stupid symbol.
Nope, I advocate for no change to the recognizable symbol - for the same reasons the site advocates for change. Too much brand recognition to change it. Introduce a new symbol for sats that leverages the existing brand recognition and goes along with the same theme. Picrel
In some countries, the prices of goods in shops are written like $134. However, it does not refer to US dollar or any other dolar-named currency at all. Let's leave it up to shops and people.
For me, it is very confusing to use ₿ for sats. I like more the kebab symbol. Anyway, it does not really matter 😉.
Fortunately, Bitcoin itself doesnt care. It just includes more blocks into the chain in the mean time. And from this point of view, this is more a PR of Bitkit. Keep calm and stay hodling.
And to think I got all excited for this because I felt like someone put some serious thought/effort into coming up with a less confusing symbol. Someone flog me.
"If Satoshi wanted the currency units named after him, he would simply have done it. I think this behaviour seems creepy and is harmful to Bitcoin." — gmax, 2019
this is just confusing. having the same symbol for different denominations will cause lots of issues. this is ripe for abuse. what if something in the future, for some reason, really costs 10,000 bitcoin? what if something is 20 sats? even the dollar system has a different symbol for cents, though i feel i usually see that represented as just partial dollars. what a waste of hype
Yes, that is just adding more confusion and is not solving anything.
Either introduce a separate symbol for sat as the cent has/had its symbol ¢ or stay with 0.0xx.
introducing a separate symbol is shitcoin mentality.
bitcoin is hyperdeflationary, so we'll only need sats. no need for decimals.
As someone pointed out on X:
If ☕️ costs 20 000 ₿, nobody will think it cost 860 million $.
And if someone is asking for 10 ₿ for their 🏠 nobody will think they can buy it for half a cent.
view on x.comIt's hard for me to imagine a more bike-sheddy discussion than this one, although in truth I'm kind of enjoying it.
A nice laboratory in human consensus-building, actually. So meta.
it's poetic how getting consensus on something so simple as the sats simple is just as hard as getting consensus on a new soft fork
it's almost like these conversations really do matter.
Social consensus is exactly the barrier Bitcoin needs to overcome, everything that helps us get there is worth the discussion.
The definition of one bitcoin as 100m sats is the original mistake here.
Calling 100m of the smallest unit of Bitcoin a satoshi and the smallest unit itself a bitcoin might have been a better choice, or maybe just don't call 100m of the smallest unit anything since we already have names for quantities...
fully agree 🤝 but we can't go back in time, so our best shot from now on is to use ₿ as the sats symbol
i can get behind this symbol, i also think the unit bias of large numbers is really important to making people excited to hold bitcoin.
nobody wants to give up their life savings just to acquire a small fraction of something… but give them hundreds, thousands, or even millions of sats and they’ll feel richer than ever.
But was the source of this problem a currency symbol or what number the BTC price ticker shows? BTC/USD, BTC/EUR etc.
you’re right, the source of the problem is what is shown on a price ticker
exactly! we must get rid of the unit bias as soon as possible! normies shouldn't think they need to buy an ETF to get a fraction of 1 BTC
I'm all for it if social consensus will have it but I'm not sure I can hold my breathe that long.
How do I say "₿ 10 000" out loud?
Is it "ten thousand bitcoin" or "ten thousand sats"?
ten thousand sats! just like we say "10 dollars" and display/type/write "$10".
Oh, I've just zapped ₿5 on this topic. What a rich guy was I? 😅
🍕🍕🍕🍕🍕
Let's do it another way. For 1 BTC we would use the symbol 🍕.
"I am rich, I just received🍕1! And those ₿100 means nothing to me." 🤔😅
Congrats on your first launch in years, maybe this one gets used.
glad you enjoyed it, anon!
A bit underwhelmed but I agree with the simple approach plus BTC really needs to overcome this unit bias thing.
I think the BTC price ticker which uses the price for a full bitcoin (100M sats) has more impact on this than a currency symbol. Imo, the solution is to make more people aware of Moscow Time.
I think this introduces more problems than it solves to be honest.
I'll stick with the High Voltage emoji ⚡ since I don't understand why such an attitude should result in consensus if all others before "failed". Also, I am not aware of any currency symbol that tried to resemble the word "sats". ₿ is trying to resemble the word "bitcoin" though. I am only aware of the lightning and the kebab. They are not resembling the word "sats", are they?
₿ stands for Bitcoin for me. ⚡ is LN.
yep, creating more problems than actually solving it, I guess the market would decide for itself.
That's the problem they are trying to solve haha
⚡ is sats for me, LN is or was just the first payment network where mainly sats are used.
I like the lightning ⚡ symbol too.
⚡ works great for lightning, not as much for sats: https://x.com/bitkitwallet/status/1753468471185478139
Good luck.
https://m.stacker.news/15283
All this show, waiting and expectations for just a re-denomination? really?
Delusional!
1₿ = 1₿,1sat = 1satas always has been. now1₿ = 1sat?Dear friend, you got lost in a rabbit hole, work more or cry harder...
https://image.nostr.build/69daeba4225269febd3ce266bab761d659ace57f3206672444ed948b8ae17826.png
would you have liked it more if we sketched out an abomination like 丰? 😂
it's fun down here! 🕳️
thanks I hate it
you hate ₿?
I think changing what the ₿ stands for is confusing in an area where normies have already lost the plot.
Solid nak from me.
So let me get this straight:
I think this is a reasonable idea, but we're so used to SAT and to the kebab to a smaller degree that many us will resist the change. Also, a handful of people will misunderstand this to be "printing" more bitcoin.
If we adopt this, we need a specific date when most sites switches over, ex. Jan 3, 2025.
Temporarily we could do this to be super clear: 1,000 ₿ (SAT). Then after a year drop (SAT).
I don't think we need such coordination (though it'd be ideal, sure). People will send ₿10000 from one wallet and receive 10000 sats on another. Doesn't have to be much more complicated than this.
https://m.stacker.news/15259
strong contender! already ingrained in everyone's minds
the young ones won't get this :)
Easier to scam people now by selling them 1 satoshi for 44k USD.
no unit bias on sight, at least!
Very ingenious. I like the idea
let's ₿ the change 🤠
₿ symbol looks a bit weird on stacker news, maybe it's the font
the more we type ₿, the more we promote it, and the more the incentive for it to be added to mobile keyboards and such
I suggest staying focused on scaling and building on Bitcoin, rather than politics.
If Satoshi didn't care about the truth he would not have chosen his name to be the truth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satya
The BITCOIN logo is used everywhere and there are 21 million of them as cap. The Genesis Block was chosen as the G is the 7th letter. It's also biblical which Nakamoto means in Japanese, "from the book". 3 is a sacred number as masculine, feminine and child or third eye. 3 * 7 = 21 and 2+1 = 3 it's recursive.
Sats is the basic unit because Sat means truth. This is synchromysticism but also not incorrect.
Satoshi is the Awakened Person. Not an accident in pseudo anonymous choice. The man, woman or group behind the persona is not the persona. Satoshi left after the tools were in place and others carried the torch.
It's regressive to redefine what takes a little research in knowledge. The basic unit has been named and in L2 lightning the basic unit is mSats or 1000 mSats = 1 sat. Or 2.1 quintillion parts to the Bitcoin network.
The word Satoshi is a Japanese version of the Sanskrit word for truth which is "Sat". In Latin, "satis" means "enough" or abundant.
Satoshi is Satori in that it is enlightened!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satya
As with many basic concepts people will work hard trying to redefine it instead of learning the basic concept. The truth is already here but people will work hard to obscure it, ignore it or their ego will not accept it.
No need to redefine it. Satoshi's legacy must be honored. Using the currency symbol he designed himself in 2010 as the sats symbol is an incredible way of honoring him!
$. It's already on every keyboard and device, and it's purpose will be negated in 10 years...
$ also carries such a negative connotation that represents the opposite of everything Bitcoin stands for. why would we want to associate sats pristine brand image with that?
I think the whole idea is to replace dollars, it would be a funny bit of irony if we replaced the dollar symbols representation with sats. Mission accomplished
Once the flippening happens where dollars and sats go one for one this week make Seth l sense (cents).
Today, 1 satoshi buys 0,22 CRC, 0,36 ARS, and 0,39 NGN. Costa Rica, Argentina, and Nigeria also happen to be countries with growing Bitcoin adoption. A $10000 price tag could mean sats, CRC, ARS, or NGN. In countries like Colombia, where 1 sat parity has been reached (1 sat = 1,68 COP), it's even harder. As we approach hyperbitcoinization, the $ will grow more ambiguous, not less
hahaha Bitkit is now using Thai Baht symbol 😂😂😂😂😂😂
hahaha the Bitcoin logo is using Thai Baht symbol 😂😂😂😂😂😂
@tip_nz
Perfection.gif
Ok. I can get onboard.
Sats all the way down. Deal
https://m.stacker.news/15268
Bitcoin requires second-layers to send less than ₿546.00
Until Bitkit solves the real UX issue (having to manage onchain and lighting balance seperately) this change of units just adds confusion
different problems, different solutions. we can work on solving them both!
Bigger problems. Limited resources. Rearrange your deckchairs at the expense of losing the ship.
Splicing solves this, no?
I was under impression that Bitkit had a separate account for LN and onchain. I tried to verify this, but the software required me to agree to "terms and conditions". Realizing that Bitkit was not built for cypherpunks, I uninstalled it.
https://m.stacker.news/15258
one global currency, one global symbol
i like it. but then ‘sats’ should simply be renamed to ‘bitcoins’.
₿ 21 000 >>> twenty one thousand bitcoins.
i personally wouldn't mind if we got there eventually, but we don't need to go there now.
typing/displaying "₿ 10000" and calling it "10000 sats" is as natural as writing "$10" and calling it "10 dollars"
https://m.stacker.news/15255
10 000 bitcoins ?
It seems a bit ambiguous. For me the best is sats
no need to stop calling it sats. 10000 sats = ₿ 10000. Just like we say "10 dollars" and type "$10".
It feels awkward to say "satoshis" while seeing the Bitcoin symbol.
I get the issue and the proposal, it has merits. But changing things now will only add more confusion. Lets
₿be for Bitcoin (as an idealistic symbol) and agree on something else forsats.Using the same symbol for both (or change course midway) will only create a mess.
not as confusing as it may initially look: https://x.com/BTC_LN/status/1755254423012667609.
We are in the era where majority of systems understand emojis, so I like ⚡. And maybe it could make for another character in utf-8 eventually.
why do we need one more currency symbol? many have tried and failed already: https://blog.bitkit.to/the-quest-for-the-ultimate-sats-symbol-a-post-mortem-ba7d6c56a513
Yes.
Bring it. Full support.
let's ₿ the change!
Sats is better
no need to stop calling it sats. 10000 sats = ₿10000, just like 10 dollars = $10.
this is how it should be! i'm onboard
Why don't we just reclaim the $ symbol. Sats will be at dollar parity soon enough. $1 = $1.
because $ represents the opposite of what Bitcoin stands for. it's more symbolic to let $ die with fiat.
There is a really good story in Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" about what the $ sign actually stands for, you might find it quite interesting.
I understand the sentiment but I could only see something like this working if adoption happens organically with some obvious way to tell its in sats.
₿s69,420 ₿/69,420
But I'm just here to observe and see how this pans out.
if you get charged ₿10000 for a coffee, will you be confused if the cost you half a billion dollars? there's way less room for confusion than it initially looks!
Confusing AF, only bitcoin and satoshi.
when will bitcoiners realize NO ONE outside of our bubble wants sats? they want BITCOIN
you send 10000 sats from one wallet and receive ₿10000 in another. both wallets show the USD amount as ~$4,49. quite simple!
₿ 69420 = “69420 sats”🤙🏽
YES.gif
Decimals suck📠
let's ₿ the change! 🫡
Pennies have a cent symbol in many different currencies. This is normal, so no one confuses the bigger with the smaller amounts.
This whole argument sounds like you don't believe bitcoin will be important enough one day for humanity to learn the smaller amounts' symbol. That's kinda sad.
we're actually so bullish that we believe 1 BTC will be worth millions, and few will be wholecoiners. no one will need to learn decimals at that point.
we want future bitcoiners to look at their balances and feel like they're making progress by saving ₿ 20 000, not that they're poor because they only have 0.0002 BTC.
https://satsymbol.com is the better option. The only argument against that one is that it somehow looks like the symbol of a famous shitcoin? Since when does Bitcoin care about what shitcoins do? Anyhow, there are more important things to focus on than a stupid symbol.
satoshi never wanted this bs, stop with the cult shit and use the btc logo lmao, no one cares or wants "sats", they want BITCOIN
ask people on the streets what 丰 means and let me know how many can answer correctly!
agree 🤝
IMO, https://satsymbol.com/ > https://satsymbol.org/
bitcoin.com = Bcash bitcoin.org = ₿
satsymbol.com = 丰 satsymbol.org = ₿
coincidence?
https://m.stacker.news/15282
I must think on this further ...
Im afraid it is
no second ₿est
110 comments? Looks like I'm late to the party. I'm going to go now.
🥂
L
W
Tnx
I like this idea.... I think "sats" are a silly and confusing name.
If I could rename it myself I'd call factions of bitcoin "bits."
1.00000000 = 1 Bitcoin 0.01000000 = 1 million bits
could just say bits are bitcoins?
1.10 = 1 bitcoin and 10 satoshis
bits are an arbitrary decimal that doesn't exist in the bitcoin protocol. let's keep using the base unit, sats
Nope, I advocate for no change to the recognizable symbol - for the same reasons the site advocates for change. Too much brand recognition to change it. Introduce a new symbol for sats that leverages the existing brand recognition and goes along with the same theme. Picrel
https://m.stacker.news/15269
丰 is not well recognized outside of a small bubble in the bitcoin twitter
Use sat/sats, until the dollar is no more and we can use $ for sats.
₿1 = $100,000,000
Might come around the same time.
I'd never adhere to it. This is apex confusion. Find another symbol.
finding another symbol is shitcoin mentality! no need to fork anything. the perfect symbol for sats has existed ever since 2010.
In some countries, the prices of goods in shops are written like $134. However, it does not refer to US dollar or any other dolar-named currency at all. Let's leave it up to shops and people.
For me, it is very confusing to use ₿ for sats. I like more the kebab symbol. Anyway, it does not really matter 😉.
Fortunately, Bitcoin itself doesnt care. It just includes more blocks into the chain in the mean time. And from this point of view, this is more a PR of Bitkit. Keep calm and stay hodling.
agree, Bitcoin doesn't care and the free market will decide. curious to see what will come out of this down the road!
How about branding millibit and microbit for now ?How about branding millibit and microbit for now ?
1000 millibit = 1 Bitcoin
So if there is 1 Bitcoin in your account its 1000 millibit
So millibit = 0.001 bitcoin microbit = 0.000001 bitcoin nanobit = 0.000000001 bitcoin so on and so forth femtobit, attobit, zeptobit yoctobit
1 millibit approximately equal 4.3 USD 1 microbit will be 0.43 cents 2.32 microbit approximately equal 1 cent 232 microbit approximately equals 1 USD
agree! we should also use the ₿ symbol for millibit, microbit, nanobit, femtobit, attobit, zeptobit, and yoctobit. One symbol to rule them all!
"redenominate" (and use a awkward syntax)
And to think I got all excited for this because I felt like someone put some serious thought/effort into coming up with a less confusing symbol. Someone flog me.
Show Satoshi some Love and Respect The apt name for the base unit is Satoshi
Some time in future - 1 Satoshi will give u a cup of tea.
"If Satoshi wanted the currency units named after him, he would simply have done it. I think this behaviour seems creepy and is harmful to Bitcoin." — gmax, 2019
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-March/016709.html
my 2
sat𝟾̷ | sat₈sat𝟾̷ | sat₈
good candidate for https://blog.bitkit.to/the-quest-for-the-ultimate-sats-symbol-a-post-mortem-ba7d6c56a513
Let's get this show on the road. I'll be keeping an eye out.