Anyone who is capable of logical thought and has seriously considered taxation in relation to other forms of theft will come to the conclusion that either taxation is theft or taxation is just some other thing that they refuse to call theft. A necessary evil. I'm not one of those people that just brings up this topic with people. It's usually brought up by them in the form of their displeasure in how the government is using money or resources. Or, sometimes how they are not using money or resources. When the topic comes up I express my opinion and conviction. Taxation is theft. Usually, they concede the point and end up saying, "Well, we have to have taxes? How would the government be funded." To which I reply, well we would have to find out. I mean, if you think the government should do x, then you send them your money to do that. Why should those that don't want x have to send their money? Don't we live in a democracy? I think most people are just uncomfortable questioning things we aren't supposed to question. Honestly, this sounds like Stockrom syndrome to me.
Over the years, I've had people tease me about saying taxation is theft. And I've discovered that one reason they do this is because they don't really understand the worst part of taxation being theft. They seem to think its because I'm greedy. That's not it. It's not that my money is being taken from me. Don't get me wrong. This infuriates me. Its not only because it is my money and they steal it by force then they use it to provide services that I actually need. Its not even that they have a monopoly on many of these services but do a terrible job performing them. I am perfectly willing to pay for things that I use and things that I need. I'm not looking to have a free ride off the back of anyone else. So what is the worst part of taxation?
The worst thing about taxation is that my money is taken from me by force and used to do many things that I find morally or ethically repulsive. Your tax dollars are used to do things that you would never support. These things are different for each person. There's nothing wrong with that. Would you donate to fund the murder and slaughter of people you have never met in some foreign land? Would you pay your hard-earned money to keep a dictator in power just so some fat cat can have a sweet deal? Would you pay your hard-earned money to ensure that some bureaucrat who isn't qualified to manage anything mismanages things that are vital to human survival? Of course you wouldn't, and that is what is so despicable about taxes. The idea that paying taxes is patriotic, the idea that you are the bad person because you understand what is actually happening is truly infuriating. It is truly a psyop.
Taxation is vital to the power of the state and the political classes. Without it they have very little reason to exist. We are in a time when most voters seem to be driven by stopping the government from doing something they don't like with tax money. Or, they are driven by using this stolen money to do what they desire. This is a key tool politicians use the gain and maintain power. Control over the stolen funds. Either to use or withhold it from a cause or imitative. Most people are so under the mind control of the system that they can't put themselves in the shoes of those they oppose. They only think about what they are told they want. But the few that do, if they are willing to think will come to the conclusion that the only solution to this stalemate is to withdraw. The state should withdraw and allow individuals to voluntarily fund what they believe should be funded. The reality is that the system for this already exists. Its called the free market.
I usually get the response, "Well if you made taxes voluntarily no one would pay them". Of course this may be true, but what does that tell you? That tells me that people do not really support all these things they are told they support. There is a mirage of support for wars and government programs that does not exist. Another common reaction is, well who would take care of the poor? This one is easy. We would. There are many wealth and ordinary people that have compassion for the poor and needy. I have zero doubt that the free market would be more effective at helping those in need than any state actor. After all, it seems absurd for anyone to think that the government would provide better food than individuals working together. Have you had government food? The same goes for every industry. But I'm not even saying that we need to get rid of the state. Most people seem to assume that things would not work if taxation was voluntarily. When I started seeing this pattern it occurred to me that there are two types of people in this regard. Those that accept the truth that taxation is theft, and those that are in denial. Everyone functionally knows taxation is theft but most are afraid to admit it is true.
this territory is moderated
As a fellow pleb on Telegram well said, better name it "TRIBUTISM":
I shall call it: Tributism, the act of collecting tributes from people with Stockholm syndrome
😂😂😂😂
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That's good!
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323 sats \ 6 replies \ @Lux 11 Mar
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Yep, its completely voluntary. "We've always been at war with Eastasia."
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I think you missing the major point here. Tax FORMS are voluntary, not the taxes itself. If you are like "Young Sheldon" you can submit the taxes on your own piece of paper and state how much you think you owe. Chances are you will be audited every year for that. The real deal is in 16th Amendment: “The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes…” It will take an act of congress to change that. Go for it I say.... :-)
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Show me the law where it says a man must be a taxpayer
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I just did. Do some reading on your own. It started with the Revenue Act of 1862. I don't like it either, but that's the way it rolls (for now). You want to change it? No one will stop you, I will even support you.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Lux 12 Mar
man, I'm asking you to show me where in any law in the entire world says that a man must be a taxpayer. read what is written, don't assume
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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @Lux 12 Mar
sorry, it's not fair, there is no such law here's some clues
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One of the important points about "Who would help the poor?" and other such questions is that the state wouldn't do it either unless there were public pressure to do so. That means, people want the poor to be helped and if our resources weren't stolen by the state, we could do so more effectively. Not to mention, that people wouldn't be so poor if they weren't systematically looted constantly.
Another point about "How would we fund _____?", is that we have crowdfunding in the private sector. The things people actually want could be funded through that kind of initiative.
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Yep, two great points I love to mention if they don't close their ears.
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I don't usually make it that far, either.
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With every year that passes and the more observational experience I have, I've become convinced most people are afraid to think for themselves. I mean that exactly as it sounds. When they start to think in any way that is out of the scope of the allowable opinions they get nervous. Often they get angry when pushed to think in these ways. It is unsettling for them. I think "The Righteous Mind" does a fair job of explaining this but not fully. There is something deep in people that blocks them from free thought.
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Ostracism is death throughout most of human existence, so it's not really that surprising. Do you want to be right and dead or wrong and alive?
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Exactly. Even though in most cases this is no longer true the instinct for survival is deep.
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I hope you don't mind. But I'm just going to link this then next time my friends bring up how fucked our country is and what's wrong with it. Because this sums up my views on taxation.
One of my largest gripes with it is capital gains tax. In my country, you're not taxed on gambling winnings. And they keep refering to crypto investing as speculative and gambling... If it's gambling why do I have to pay capital gains?
Capital gains is the worst of all taxation in my opinion, I front all the cost in the securities/commodities/crypto market. I shoulder all the risk, my investment could go to zero. But if I profit. Bam they get a slice of it. Nah, no way, they shouldn't be entitled to anything.
Really gets me riled up.
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They know gamblers always lose. Nothing to collect there. But in crypto investing, there are a lot potential to collect there.
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Please do!
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Taxation is about destroying productive economic activity. It's a complete violation of private property rights. It's entitlement by people with money printers and more guns to steal your shit.
First they take your money, then your property, then they take your smoking rights, then they take your life. It's a slippery slope. That's why Bitcoin is so cool. It's much more difficult for them to take it.
Taxation is a form of dominance over the lower classes. Higher classes use the state to unfairly earn income. They make the tax money back from backroom deals.
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Bitcoin or Slavery
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If they can just print money out of thin air from nothing to funding endless wars, kill innocent people and get themselves and their banks accounts fat, then why do we need to pay taxes? We don't. Taxes are just to keep the illusion.
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Yep, 100%. I really think there are limits to how much taxation a population will allow as well as how much money printing. Its why I believe that bitcoin could revolutionize the relationship the state has to the plebs.
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Thank You, top read, important stuff!
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Fantastic writeup! I really like the thought experiments and thinking from first principles.
Publishing a list of things that your government does with your tax money that people would probably not agree with, would perhaps make people start asking questions about taxes.
It's unfortunate there's no country, I think, that leaves most things to the free market instead of demanding taxes. That would be a great example to look at.
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taxation is extortion, not theft.
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Its both. For example there are situations where it isn't extortion on me. When I get my paycheck. It is theft but because it is just taken out of my pay but they extort my employer to get them to do it. Good point though. Agree with you.
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Taxation is slavery.
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I agree.
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One at a time. Block by block.
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How about:
Taxation is Death
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 11 Mar
Has anyone ever managed to get out of paying taxes on moral grounds?
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Yes me. I always send back all their letters saying that I do not have a contract with them, so I do not have to pay anything until they prove I sign that contract. After so many years they still didn't come back to me with that. So I stopped paying any taxes years ago. FUCK'EM'ALL
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I think this argument is incredibly one sided.
Focuses too much on the negative things that taxes do and nothing on the positive and nowadays it’s so easy to do because of how inept leadership has been in the western world for the last 60 to 70 years. But even with all the waste blunder and nonsense by the bloated government paying taxes and providing services has been an incredible boon for your average citizen. People can read and do basic math.
This idea that the free market solves everything isn’t true. It has trade offs like everything else. If the free market was so great why were literacy rates so low before public school were established?
Cryptology was advanced by the war effort to hide communication. A war effort funded by taxes. Once the state released the SHA algorithms people hacked away and created bitcoin. As an answer to the ridiculousness of central banks and politicians.
Im not shilling for taxes or the state but we at least have to recognize some of the good things taxes too.
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Why do you attribute these things to taxes instead of other factors? Curious if we can come up with other possible reasons for the absence of literacy and general quality of life. Not going to answer these questions yet but I assure you I've thought about everything you brought up. I even mentioned that taxes do fund services that are vital for human flourishing.
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I think a better way to put what was written is taxation, of itself, is good, because it is a way to distribute certain goods common to all men in a more equitable manner.
The issue is actually that modern states took what was originally a form of rent or collection for specific times of crisis and turned it into a standard practice.
I find it ironic that modern democracies were made to free people from the tyrannies of the old regimes and yet they started more tyrannical than they’re predecessors, including the whole taxation deal
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I think a better way to put what was written is taxation theft, of itself, is good, because it is a way to distribute certain goods common to all men in a more equitable manner.
I fixed it for you.
Do you mean the results of taxes in some cases are good?
distribute certain goods common to all men in a more equitable manner
Equitable according to how? You? Some bureaucrat? Why do some people get to decided what is "equitable" while other's opinions are ignored?
form of rent or collection
These are voluntary. If I don't like the rent for a house / apartment in most cases I can go find another place. If there is a collection I give what I can or what I think I should.
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Other factors are involved but I start from a place that on masse humans are generally greedy and man has unfettered ambitions. How else do you justify billionaires exploring space when children die of starvation every day. And people will justify this type of behavior saying “it’s their money they can spend it how they wish” but that is one critique the socialists have that the capitalist and libertarians have yet to find a solution for what to do with the excess production created by capitalism and how to divide it up fairly. Taxes is an attempt to do this but it’s easily corrupted
Before public schools the cost to provide education to the poor isn’t profitable. So why would the free market solve this? Expecting altruism to solve this problem is being naive and goes against human nature. Plus most humans are just of average intelligence anyways so expecting people to self learn on mass is unlikely.
Taxes was an attempt for humans to gather resources and do things for society for the greater good. But instead man has screwed it up to the points mentioned like forever wars and entitlements.
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So, you are opposed to taxes on moral grounds but not on consequential grounds? You see it as a necessary evil? Am I understanding you?
humans are generally greedy
I agree with you. This is one of the key weaknesses in centralizing power. I do think that if you decentralized public schooling down to the local areas we'd have much better results and much less disagreement than we do today. I just reject the idea that taxes is the best way to do this. I even more strongly object to the idea that force and theft are the only affective methods to educate the population. But, I used to see things that way.
justify billionaires
I don't justify billionaires actions. I also don't justify state actions which cause much more harm. But when you mention billionaires and governments you repeat yourself. The billionaires control the governments of the word. That said, children die of starvation every day today mostly due to governments across the globe.
Before public schools the cost to provide education to the poor isn’t profitable. So why would the free market solve this? Expecting altruism to solve this problem is being naive and goes against human nature.
In the early history of the US schools were taught in a single room by a teacher paid by the community. This later evolved into a much more centralized system. The department of education was formed in order to maintain more tight control over the hearts and minds of the children of the US. The elite titans of industry were very interested in educating the masses.
If you are curious about this check out the influence of the Prussian education system on the US. I do not believe education would arise solely due to altruism. Although, if we live in a society that already has schools where children can attend for free largely funded and supported by industry then I have no doubt that without taxes we would have more of this.
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“That said, children die of starvation every day today mostly due to governments across the globe.”
But how many are fed because of government actions as well. All the subsidies farmers get. Feeding people is not that profitable on mass. If it was the farmers wouldn’t need subsidies,
“ I just reject the idea that taxes is the best way to do this“
I never said taxes are the best way it’s just what is done currently. I think people ignore the positive externalities that come with taxation and amplify the negative aspects of taxation.
Before western civilization things where chaotic in a sense. Now people make fake money and then bitch and complain about how much of that fake money is “stolen” from them while ignoring the fact they even have a chance of life because of taxation.
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Fair, I was reading into what you are saying. Let me be clear.
I'm not saying taxes do nothing good. They do feed people, they do pay for things that are vital for human life. You didn't say it was the best way. But you seem to reject the idea that there is a better way, IE the abolition of taxes.
I reject this statement.
ignoring the fact they even have a chance of life because of taxation.
Taxes are a leech. Taxes come from profits and wealth. These things come from the free market. The state can't make these. We can just agree to disagree but governments are leaches. They are not responsible for feeding the world. Farmers are. The free market is. The default state of man is hungry and naked. When we cooperate and create wealth we can take the time to solve higher level problems like education because we no longer have to focus solely on survival. I reject the idea that we would be worse off without the state. Now, I'm not saying that we should not have any governance or organization. I'm saying it should be voluntary. I'm saying top down control with the threat of violence will never be better than freedom. You can see this in nations that have more centralized control. They have less flourishing. Those with more freedom do better. I think we are very close to being on the same page. I think this because I used to make the arguments you are making in my head.
One other thing, I don't think taxes or the state can be blamed for all the ills of modern society. Much of it is likely due to the breakdown of community. With the rejection of faith communities people do not have the tight bonds they once had.
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The government take, take, take from the people. They steal money from people and employ thugs (police) to enforce this and create a whole system designed purely to extract all these different "taxes" (inc' fees, fines, registration, regulation fees). I think one of the many reasons we put up with this is because us citizens are the ones who do these jobs. It's insane when you think about it. If the guvt ever "give" us anything it has an ulterior motive. Farmer's subsidies, "free education" and the like is all designed to control people. Look at what's happening all over the world with the farmer's protests. If they had not become so beholden to the government handouts, control and regulation, they could tell the grubberment to feck off. With regards to education, it is a relatively new concept in the history of the world. I don't buy the literacy level argument. The levels of literacy that many young people are currently leaving schools with in supposedly developed western countries right now is absolutely atrocious. Mental health of children is at an incredible low, self harm is at crisis levels! I have been parenting over 25 years and have seen, first hand, the horrendous outcomes from state schooling. In short, will not stop speaking out about the harm done to kids in the school system.
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This is viewing the world from a western lens. Which develops this tax is theft bias.
Life is good you have options so it’s easy to have this view. Now let’s drop you in failed state that has no tax base and see if you have the same views.
And if you are an American citizen you can pay your exit tax denounce your citizenship and go find your no tax no government dream.
More than likely no one is going to try and live it out because it’s too hard. Instead they want all of of the spoils the state creates but doesn’t want to pay. A classic problem in Economics
The reason I reject this unfettered freedom is fantastic is because humans had that from the dawn of time. Western society and taxes are new on the time scale of things.
The way taxes are administered now I agree it punishes productive people. Why work more when 60% of your next dollar will go to the tax man.
But unlimited freedom is not the answer as well plus people lie when left up to the free market. Look at the iridium girls and all the measures that were taken to protect a deadly product.
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1000% yes, I believe taxation is a theft and if more then it's a scam. Let me tell you my PoV with my reasoning.
I have 6 members in my family and all are dependents. I am the only person who is earning and have the responsibility to fulfill all the needs for my family. I have been doing this happily for more than 10 years now and if I remain exactly the same, I can serve my family for eternity.
Why that little story? It's just to remind everyone that you never tax your family members and you always fulfill their needs. But as chief of the family, you also get control of most of the assets, like, I have 50 acres of land, 2 tractors, 1 Borewell, a few livestock, 3 houses in different cities and many other things.
Now take it like this that governments are the heads of a ver big family called nations. As the head of the family they control all the assets. They have land, mines, rivers, trees, etc etc. So, why not they utilise the assets and take responsibility. There are many examples around the where tax is exempted. If they can do, why not US, India, and China? Because, the politics in these countries runs only from point A to point B, i.e. A bald faced lie to Taxation
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For sure it's better and more "natural" to live in an egalitarian and free society without taxes, military conscription, etc. But, if you do not pay to your own government, you will pay to another - liberal society can't win a war, because no one want to die for a state. Taxation is not a theft - it is an integral part of the monetary system, which itself is a mechanism of power. Money (and taxes) are needed to govern people in a first place.
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So you say that not only is taxation moral because it is needed. Also slavery is. Its odd to me to say this about conscription since the US has been just fine without it for 40 years.
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I say nothing about morality, because it's a social construct and can be arbitrary depending on what people can agree on. And I don't say that taxation and enforced government are the only way to build a state. I just say that current states work this way: taxation is a feature, not a bug. What about the conscription - I bet it isn't needed because the US has the strongest army and the strongest economy in the world. If and when there will be war with an equal enemy - conscription will be turned on again.
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Anyone who is capable of logical thought and has seriously considered taxation in relation to other forms of theft will come to the conclusion that either taxation is theft or taxation is just some other thing that they refuse to call theft.
So taxation is a necessary evil? Is that your position?
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Not necessary, but a better system is not invented yet - I mean a practical system, not theoretic. And, I believe, blockchain will help us make it possible.
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I agree with pretty much, if not all, of what you wrote. It infuriates me no end. I think we are a rare breed lol. I get what you are saying about people not thinking about it - or allowing themselves to think about it. We are not taught to have our own rational thought and if we ever do entertain a curious questioning we are psyoped back in line with fear of "wrong think". Like you said "I think most people are just uncomfortable questioning things we aren't supposed to question." This is the main problem. The grubberment psyops everyone and then the brainwashed citizens "police" and moderate their fellow citizens. Anyone looking like having wrongs thoughts are pounced on and bullied - usually called something with "ist" on the end of it. I have mostly given up trying to discuss most things that require any kind of critical thinking skills as most people seem to be incapable of entertaining the thought of ever being wrong and that the info they've been fed their whole lives could be BS.
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It is crucial for Americans to question their tax $ & its allocations; let alone not filing
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There's no tax while you vote on my poll. Haha
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deleted by author
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God said "Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's" taxation is NOT wrong in itself. its the OVER taxation ... literally taxing taxes, etc. it's out of hand, completely out of hand. but this also brings up the ? of tithing, which is a very important principle of God and His Kingdom. Not to be stingy but be willing to give your last PENNY to GOD'S KINGDOM. BIG DIFFERENCE. when talking about the earthly rulers which are corrupt & evil. God will repay for your sowing and reaping.
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Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's
Are you getting that taxation is not wrong because Jesus didn't say it was wrong? If you go down that road you run into many problems. The context is important.
And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and some of the Herodians, to trap him in his talk. And they came and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are true and do not care about anyone’s opinion. For you are not swayed by appearances, but truly teach the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?
Do you see what they were trying to do? They were asking Jesus if it violated the Jewish Law to pay taxes. They were not asking if it was morally right. What does Jesus do?
But, knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, “Why put me to the test? Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” And they brought one. And he said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said to him, “Caesar’s.”
We get the context for a reason. These men were using Caesar's money. They were in his system. These men didn't like Caesar or paying taxes. They resented it. If you are trying to tell me these men thought taxes were a good thing I don't think you've thought deeply about this. I used to read past this passage myself in the same way. Its because I'd never heard anyone provide another way to look at it.
Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they marveled at him.
As with many things in the New Testament their focus was on the Kingdom of God, not the kingdom of this world. Overthrowing the hearts of men, not the systems of this world. But by transforming the hearts of men the world is made better.
The way I understand this passage is that if you are gonna play with this man's system, use his money be prepared to pay him. But the entire world is the Lord's and give him everything.
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I see taxes as the fee to use the facilities of the club.
Without those facilities, I wouldn't have access to the Internet. I wouldn't have street lights, or roads to drive.
I would also not be able to buy bread at the corner shop because the baker as well wouldn't have access to all the things he needs to make the bread to sell to me.
Let's say you built your own home. Nice, but there wouldn't be water or electricity.
I think it would be much, much harder to generate value, and therefore your money, if you didn't use anything that the government has provided for you over the years, either directly, or indirectly.
There are other ways to do it though, some countries that have other ways of making money don't charge tax, like these ones, but you quickly realize that they are tiny, and they usually have other forms of tax anyway.
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It is the same but I would say taxation is racketeering, and the State is a lawful mafia. 15-20 years ago the New York Times was publishing everyday news about war in Irak. A good American was a patriote against terrorism. Things didn't change that much, now a good person should hate Putin and acknowledge killings for Justice. My conclusion recently is anything which leads to hate our neighbor must be propaganda from the State Mafia (it could be from individuals also but it would be propaganda anyway).
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This reminds me, I need to make a bumpersticker that says, "Taxation is paperwork".
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stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.