128 sats \ 27 replies \ @Undisciplined 25 Apr \ on: Civil Forfeiture And Samurai Mixed Bitcoin bitcoin
I've been saying that civil forfeiture is the biggest threat to us (bitcoiners). Do you share that view?
I haven't given it much thought until now. I should have.
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I wasn't thinking about this money transmitter issue, specifically.
My concern is that they'll start opportunistically seizing any bitcoin that was allegedly used in a crime, regardless of whether the current owners are alleged to have been involved.
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Yes. Definitely. I see this also bringing about good and bad bitcoin, with fungibility out the window.
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This is the main concern for me. The more addresses that get sanctioned by govts, the more it puts pressure on the main value proposition of bitcoin.
We already have some loss of fungibility but it's mostly at the off-ramp level.
Would ofac adding every output from a whirlpool coinjoin to their list bring the matter to a head? It certainly would be a big mess. How far away from a coinjoin output could they argue is "connected"?
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And how exactly is that going to be a threat against self-custody bitcoiners?
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There a couple of different things I'm concerned about.
One would be that someone upstream from you is accused of a crime that allegedly involved bitcoin: maybe you sold your used car to them, which connects you to them financially. Then the feds can claim that you're in possession of stolen property.
What I'm more worried about is that there could be some sort of certifying agency for "clean bitcoin". That could dramatically reduce the ability to use your bitcoin, because everyone who wants to stay on the right side of the state will only transact in those approved bitcoin.
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Oh come on, I'd like to call the above BS, which it still is, IMHO, but the stupidity of today's average Joe and his longing for "compliance" with "the law" wouldn't make the above totally unthinkable.
Still, this is a human problem, and has nothing to do with Bitcoin's inherent usability and fungibility.
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On a long enough time horizon, I agree. However, in the short-term this could dramatically impact usability and fungibility.
The dollar is not going down without a fight and there's no chance they're going to play fair.
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We definitely shouldn't. My point though is that talking about legality and other such concepts is not relevant, here.
When they start to feel threatened, they will lash out and there will be real people who get crushed.
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Look at all the "novel legal theories" being used against Trump right now. That means they know it's not really meant to be a crime, but they're going to call it one anyway.
We're in an era of lawfare and anarcho-tyranny. If you're inconvenient to the regime, they're going to try to deal with you, one way or another.
Edit: I should have said, "the feds can claim you're in possession of property that was used in the commission of a crime"
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They can claim a foto of my asshole, which I'll gladly send them a copy of.
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The problem is that there's a reduced burden of proof for civil forfeiture, that's why the state loves it.
Obviously, you can keep your bitcoin secure, but you'll be charged with obstructing justice or aiding and abetting, or some other statist bs, for doing so.
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And then?
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It probably depends on whether they want to make an example of you. Irwin Schiff died in prison for not giving into the state's demands.
Maybe you just sit in jail for a while and lose your job, because you no-call no-showed.
Most people will probably cave, which is the point.
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Most people will probably cave, which is the point.
I was thinking yesterday before all this broke about the miner centralization issue (almost 50% of the hash power being essentially antpool). And the thought I had was that it's better we get to these battles now.
Both of these problems (Miner centralization or a state attack on utxo fungibility) go right to the very core of what bitcoin was designed to solve.
If bitcoiners can't resist them we are better off figuring out what needs to change now rather than when there are more players like etfs (who I imagine don't care at all about centralization or fungibility) involved.