I don't think that it's too hot of a take to state that most of someone's first 18 - 25 years are spent in schools, of which the majority of time is spent on laying the foundation for a (possible) future career, instead of a balanced life---both physically and mentally.
If you were to be responsible to change the above and lay the focus on the latter, instead of the former, thus being responsible for creating a place where young adults are raised into good humans*, instead of workers, then how'd you go about it?
*Whatever that entails to you.
this territory is moderated
That's a great prompt.
The first and most obvious thing is that parents need to be aware of what is being imparted to their kids in school. If they find those lessons to be unacceptable, for whatever reasons, then they need to find a different arrangement. If those lessons are merely incomplete, then parents need to take the time to make up the difference.
As to what kinds of changes need to be made, obviously I have many in mind: see, #496016 for some of them.
Since you have to be able to support yourself before you can support others, that's probably the place to start. Kids should be learning skills that will be directly useful in their lives, regardless of career path: personal finance, nutrition, cooking, etc. A bonus to this, that I'm discovering currently, is that little kids are eager to help out around the house, so they're motivated to learn these things. That's something that can be fostered at school by giving kids actual responsibilities, which I understand is done in Japan (perhaps @cryotosensei can elaborate) and is being done in some American charter schools.
Then it's a matter of communicating wiser priorities. Personal relationships matter more to people than careers and yet the later is heavily prioritized over the former. Beyond a roughly middle class income, average happiness stops increasing with wealth, so we should be encouraging people to try to make a living doing things they find fulfilling.
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That's right, when children are little they love to help you, their curiosity about the world makes them want to support you in whatever you do, my daughter at the moment likes to wash the dishes hahaha, who likes to wash dishes? Only the children like it because they play with the foam, but it is a good opportunity to teach them, the same for washing their clothes, they also like to help in the kitchen, my daughter and I cook together sometimes, she helps me with simple and Likewise, it is a great opportunity for her to learn and become familiar with household chores, which she will have to do alone at some point when she becomes independent.
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My daughter often tells us "Stop! I want to help!"
It's not always easy to come up with things she can do, but she often helps my wife with simple cooking tasks and she helps me change out our water jugs.
Usually, it ends up being more work, but as you say, it's a great opportunity for her to learn.
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It really is complicated, it depends on their age, at first it is more difficult, and I totally agree, sometimes it is more work than the help, but they feel so happy being a useful part of the house, the The problem also lies when we are in a hurry or it is something that cannot be damaged, but there we create strategies to make them participate. They also learn by making mistakes, today my daughter calmly mixes the pancakes by herself, I leave the ingredients on the table and she is in charge of mixing, while I do something else or sometimes she washes the dishes (not knives) and I I am advancing some other task, it is very great when they already know how to do small tasks. Keep up the good work with your baby.
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69 sats \ 1 reply \ @Fabs OP 7 May
"The first and most obvious thing is that parents need to be aware of what is being imparted to their kids in school. If they find those lessons to be unacceptable, for whatever reasons, then they need to find a different arrangement. If those lessons are merely incomplete, then parents need to take the time to make up the difference."
Hm, I see where you're coming from, and what if both parents work full time?
"Kids should be learning skills that will be directly useful in their lives, regardless of career path: personal finance, nutrition, cooking, etc."
Absolutely, and bonus points for arguing that kids should be given responsibility, as I think that that's something many people lack nowadays: general responsibility.
"Personal relationships matter more to people than careers and yet the later is heavily prioritized over the former.*"
True, but how exactly would you go about turning these two around?
"We should be encouraging people to try to make a living doing things they find fulfilling."
That should be one of the main efforts, IMHO.
How would you facilitate that?
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what if both parents work full time?
  1. Maybe that's not absolutely necessary. Most people never bother to even calculate how much extra money they really have from the second earner.
  2. There are lots of options, other than homeschooling: charters, private schools, zoning exemptions, etc. It might even be as simple as finding a different teacher in the same school.
how exactly would you go about turning these two around?
This is a culture shift, more than something schools should be involved with. My sense is that parents tell their kids to focus on their school work, rather than their friendships or dating. That doesn't need to be reversed, exactly, but kids should be encouraged to treat those relationships and commitments seriously, instead of communicating that they aren't important.
How would you facilitate that?
This one should be pretty easy. Instead of jamming everyone into the same cookie cutter, let kids pursue their interests: This is common in several alternative education systems, like Montessori and unschooling. Then, help them find opportunities to make a living doing those things.
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What seems so nefarious to me is that it no longer seems kids are just being trained to be good workers but also good sycophants as well.
It seems very akin to the Maoist cultural revolution where everything except the state approved doctrine was removed from schools.
So I suppose critical thinking skills is one of the best attributes people can bestow upon their kids to offset the statist indoctrination.
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"but also good sycophants as well."
Right on!
"critical thinking skills is one of the best attributes people can bestow upon their kids."
Bonus points!
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Great post by the way. I like when we get stackers to crowdsource ideas in this way that helps construct a framework for something.
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My initial motivation was to try and poke people's views on what makes a human "good", as well as how they would strive to include and pursue those virtues in a child's upbringing.
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Off the top of my head:
  • Encourage/require that they WORK, in terms of nothing gets done for them, that the child can do themselves. Must help around the house, must help with cooking, cleaning, at the minimum
  • Encourage/require, as early as possible, that they work for pay outside the house
  • Allow only limited screen time. This is much tougher than it seems, but I think it's critical.
  • Only if you limit screen time will most children have the inclination to pursue hobbies and interests. Screen time (video games, surfing, etc) is so addictive that kids don't develop hobbies and interests anymore, not nearly like before. Or those hobbies are instagram surfing, and the like.
  • Consider homeschooling in a supportive community.
  • If you're not religious, consider becoming religious and being part of a religious community, for the sake of the children. I know this is not easy, but I've seen enough of the world to believe that atheism, and no religion whatsoever, is not a good life plan in the long run, over generations.
And it may seem odd, in the context of your question, that I emphasize work. However, I don't really believe that public schooling is designed to develop good workers, who focus on career. Most of it is useless, a waste of time. It's evolved as the least-common-denominator path to employing a bunch of school teachers and other employees. The focus is not on the kids. There's so much make-work useless feel-good bureaucracy in public education.
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84 sats \ 1 reply \ @Fabs OP 7 May
Hm, you're keen on having them develop a "hands-on" mentality, ain't it?
I'm with you on point (4)5, 6, and 7, though, since I also think that children and young adults are way too much online, and that's certainly not always in their best interest (I can speak from experience).
Moreover, homeschooling allows for 1:1 lessons, as well as the ability to structure the lessons in a way one see's fit, which translates to flexibility in both duration and contents of the respective lessons, both of which could benefit the child in multiple ways.
Furthermore, although religion can be a source of friction and work in someone's disadvantage (women under Sharia-law), i'm largely with you on integrating it, as well, as it can give the child a moral compass and "ruleset" to live by; I think i'd go with Buddhism, you?
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I think, even more than the moral compass part of things, the religious community is very important. So Buddhism wouldn't work for that, because there's so little community (at least where I live). You'd have to practice it on your own, which in my opinion defeats the whole purpose of having a religion...
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Wow deep question. 🧐
I guess try to help kids find their hobbies, the things they love to do and encourage them. Creativity is really important I feel.
And be the best person you can be as children naturally imitate the adults.
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Hm, and how would you give form to that?
What topics would you choose to engage in, and what topics would you ignore?
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The culture in the US is mostly work oriented, and people refuse to put it down. The first lesson would have to be then, ignore pretty much everyone and everything else.
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It's like that everywhere, isn't it?
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I think countries with siestas have less of it.
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Hah πŸ˜‰
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Let me guess - most of them arent working in their first years... They are just getting addicted to stupid stuff like mobile games, sugar and so on... Isnt it? They need to learn to work in the very early years... It starts with two years already, putting plates in the dish washer, they love it, because it is a game to put them in correctly and so on. Or in the woods, collecting timber, and so on and so on... To many parents are to busy with working, so the kids can only "play the stupid games", because they dont have a good leader...
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American work addiction is an old tradition going back to the founding of the nation nearly. "Protestant work ethic meets Puritan don't let Satan keep you busyness".
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I've been thinking about that a lot recently and it's a question I've been discussing with my wife. I sincerely think that the educational system is rubbish, a business and that it is very overrated, and it is something that depends a lot on the city in the world where you are, it is not the same education in Ecuador as in Denmark, to mention an example. Now I consider that we should all be educated, as they did with "Don Diego de la Vega" the "Zorro." Character from a television series that I watched a lot when I was still a child. A Man Awakened and Educated in social manners, trained in production and management of wealth, instructed in arts such as drawing and painting, dance, music and martial arts for self-defense, knowledgeable in politics but not an adept or supporter of any political party, educated in diverse literature and knowledgeable about other cultures, capable of using tools and manufacturing with his own hands, skilled in various sports, both physical and mental agility, and capable of working the land with basic gardening to manage a small garden, and also knowledgeable about how to raise farm animals for family consumption, among other things. Thanks to those skills he saw how there were injustices and corruption and decided to fight against it with a costume and a pseudonym "El Zorro" outside of the vigilante part, although it can be translated as a way of helping others, of which there are multiple ways of carry out. I think that's how they should educate all of us. And it is the model that we could say I try to replicate for my children. And for that to be possible, the only option is to take the education of our children in our hands, enough of leaving that to the state. We just have to look around us, do royalty send their children to the schools or universities that ordinary people go to? I don't believe it. Thank you for reading. Stay in PagΓΌer πŸ’ͺ🀠⚑🍊
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Hm, I'm with ya on that all the way, but man: "Zorro" absolutely had shit together, that's almost a bit too much of the good! 😜
How are you going to do that? Does one of the two of you stay home and teach the child? Hire a teacher and have him do 1:1 lessons? A bit of both?
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Obviously there are topics that we cannot teach ourselves and for that we look for a teacher, and to the extent that we can teach them, we do it!! And additionally, we are also educating ourselves in aspects that we ourselves did not know or handle so that we can then teach the child. But keeping in mind that sending him to primary school, plus the other stages that follow after that, is not the solution and not a good option if we want our son to be more awake and aware than us and achieve better results in the future. next when it is his turn to become an adult.
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Clear, the nice thing is that you can also teach some basics in regards to philosophy, sociology and psychology, something which isn't a given in schools.
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And mainly about money, schools do not teach you how it works, how money is created or issued. They only encourage you to see how you could earn it by working for others and if you want to improve your salary you should study more. And they don't even encourage you to win the real one (Xau) but rather to win roles with the false illusion that that is the way.
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Idk about your premise. Kids don't really spend most of their time in the first 25 years preparing for a career.
School is a lot of wasting time for waiting for kids to grow up. You can tell this is true because how some kids can catch up the learnings of a year over the summer if they were missing due to illness or student exchange or vacation etc.
Kids also spend a lot of time playing, watching tv, doing sports, learning instruments. My school education was also a lot of useless arts and culture and theatre and learning useless stuff by hearth. You could say that's part of preparing for the softskills part of a career - but at least you have to admit it's debatable here.
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It's about the contents teached, and motivation of schools that I'm aiming at; and the first 18 -to 25 years are dominated by school.
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My plan is to educate my daughter at home. I want her to learn basic life skills, cooking, managing her money, sexual education, driving a car, knowing what to do if she has an accident, first aid and knowing the importance of taking care of her family. mind and body. Raising children is not that simple, sometimes we want to do things and they turn out differently, personally I always talk to my daughter, we talk about the importance of her voice when it comes to giving her opinion, for example today when I dropped her off at school ( I still haven't been able to get her out of there for various reasons) and one of her teachers comes up to me and says: "Madam, your daughter spoke to me and told me that she doesn't like me helping her carry her suitcase and that she doesn't like me helping her either." give hugs, I tell you this because I don't want you to think that I treat your daughter with indifference", I told her that there was no problem. My daughter had previously told me that she didn't like it when her teacher hugged her and didn't let her carry her things on her own, so I told her "use your voice, and with great respect tell her that you don't like being hugged when you don't." you want and that he doesn't do it anymore and that you like to carry your suitcase alone"; It seems important to me that children know how to speak and defend themselves against adults, many are afraid to say what they think or want for fear that they will be scolded and that is very marked here in Latin America where there is adultcentrism. It is important that they learn self-defense as well, creating your own garden, even if it is small; We live in a society where everything is automatic and we are increasingly useless and that became more than clear in the pandemic. It is very great to have 3 university degrees but they are of no use to you if you do not know how to cook, defend yourself, lack emotional intelligence, empathy, respect and problem-solving skills. I hope I am explaining myself well. I am not taking education for granted and I am not saying that it is of no use, having knowledge of history, culture, mathematics, etc. is extremely important, having a balance of both skills in my opinion would make you a useful person to society and personally.
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Hm, I like how you're doing things, keep at it!
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If you were to be responsible to change the above and lay the focus on the latter, instead of the former, thus being responsible for creating a place where young adults are raised into good humans*, instead of workers, then how'd you go about it?
I think the foundation needs to be laid at home, ideally, and this should be primarily the role of parents.
I'm reading (actually listening to) a book that deals with the question of raising children, Peaceful Parenting, by philosopher Stefan Molyneux, which is about extending the NAP to the relationship between adults and children, i.e. raising kids without violence (physical and verbal) and punishments. I rate the author very highly, and would recommend the book without hesitation.
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Hm, I think the biggest obstacle to that is that many parents find themselves in a spot where they have to work two jobs, which will inevitably chip away at the quality of parenting which they can offer.
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Yeah, and it's unfortunate that because both parents choose to work, kids have to settle with nannies, usually paid a minimum wage, and most of them don't even have kids!
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I teach people, whether young or old, to always do what you love. Because you only do well if you love what you do. It is also very important not to simply abandon your children, whether at daycare or at school. You have to get them to where they develop best based on the given facts. If healthy development cannot take place, you have to get them out of there, quickly!
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"*It is also very important not to simply abandon your children, whether at daycare or at school. *"
Yep, I'm absolutely with you on that, since it's quite common where I live for people to quite literally only see their kids in the morning and after working hours; they're pretty much raised by others, not because their parents exactly want to, but because they have to work two full-time jobs.
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This is difficult to answer, but I think that good people are raised from childhood and parents have a lot to do with this, I think I would start with childhood teaching them the value of empathy and teaching good values, sharing, respect, having empathy with others, helping selflessly...
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Schools are designed to teach compliance and condition the child to believe and behave in certain ways.
If I were writing this question I'd say "good human, instead of a good citizen". I don't think the work is the problem. Work towards a goal is good. Being lazy both mentally and physically is a huge problem these days. I don't think children are taught to work and not taught to relax. Leisure for no reason is no virtue. What are you resting from?
There are many important things to do. Many problems to solve. Many things we each need. When we do work that matters, and there is a lot of that work to do we can enjoy our rest.
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It is my belief that schools are also designed to break down the connection between parent and child. To put the state in the middle. To intervene and replace the family and cultural influences that might disrupt the system of the state and corporate machine. You see, many cultures and belief systems are rivals to the state/corporate system.
"Only a fool would let his enemy teach his children." Malcom X
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Hm, one could enlarge this and state that a welfare-state (like Germany) drives a trench between men and women as well, as men aren't "depended" upon as much as before, since the state can take care of things.
I think that both your's and the above are a double-edged sword in many ways.
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"If I were writing this question I'd say "good human, instead of a good citizen". I don't think the work is the problem."
Hm, that might have made a better title indeed...
There are indeed many things we should strive to improve on, but also many "bullshit" jobs.
Do you think that we should sacrifice those, and focus on the important jobs?
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I think "we" is the problem. I know what you mean and I'm not trying to be a jerk (comes easy) but I think each person should do what they need to do.
There are indeed bullshit jobs but I think they mostly exist due to fiat. Many years ago I realized that work can be fulfilling but need not be one's purpose. Work can be the fuel for your passion. Many time's our passions are not economically important enough to drive v4v at a level needed to survive.
If you care about people and realize that money and work go together you can find joy in any work. You must realize that the fact that someone is taking their money and giving it to you to do something, that fact alone means someone values your work. Fiat distorts this and the collectivist mindset perverts this but its true none the less.
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Hm, I don't see the added benefit of slaving away 40 hours a week, only to make ends meet.
The only work I've been finding to be fulfilling is often times work I don't get paid for [in fiat], but work that stems from someone being in need, or something I'll benefit of myself.
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Really? Have you never not known if you could make rent? Have you ever been broke with no prospects? I've worked in factories doing repetitive work for little pay. Still... I know I was making 10 times more than most people in the world. I look back on those days with mixed feelings. On the one hand I hated going to work. I hurt my body doing some of the work. But with all that I learned how to do stuff I didn't want to do because I loved my wife and son. It gave me drive to figure out something better to do that would actually pay more money. Even more importantly it motivated me to challenge myself more. I was being lazy in a way. Sure I was sweating and burning calories but mentally I was not challenged.
It took me to long to get into the head space that I need to get off my butt. Develop myself. And make myself indispensable as a person. I read a book a few years later titled Linchpin. There were many good take aways from this book but the big one that is relevant here is to care about the work you do. Even if you are bussing tables at a coffee shop. I worked hard at that and do to this day. When I find myself unmotivated and down it is because I'm not investing my emotion into my work. Being helpful to my co-workers. This is a skill that is best learned when you are NOT working in things you want to do. As I worked through college courses I thought were dumb, worked side projects at night to learn web dev, and getting up to go to work in the morning it was the drive to survive and thrive that pushed me forward.
Honest opinion. These days most people in wealthy nations are spoiled brats. I include myself in that. At least I try not to be. We have the privilege of free time to think about how hard our lives are. We aren't completely obsessed with not starving to death. We know even if we lose our jobs. Even if we live on the street, our lives are better than most of the world.
I think we have a gratitude problem. We feel sorry for ourselves. Life is amazing. We have the Internet. The main obstacle isn't the government, capitalism, or socialism. Its us. We are the enemy to slay. The state is evil. Most corporations are faceless monsters. Sure... but we haven't even slayed the enemy within.
I don't love what I do every day. But I GET to do so many things because of what I do. If I focus on finding the perfect most fulfilling career instead of finding joy in each day... I will be cursed to sorrow no matter what I do or where I am.
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Hm, hmm hm hm... I don't think we'll reach consensus here, but you raise some valid points, especially about the West being spoiled, that's very much true...
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