It's been a while since I've scolded everyone for their miserliness. The recent archiving of some popular territories inspired me to make another attempt. Plus, there are quite a few new stackers who haven't been scolded, yet.
I'll keep this one short and sweet:
  1. Territory owners need to make about 100 kilosats per month.
  2. They earn their sats through posting fees.
  3. OP's need to recoup their posting costs through zaps.
Therefore, when there's content you like, zap big and zap often.
If there's a lack of content you like, cowboy up and write it yourself. We just might make it worth your while.
Zapping more can pay for itself through the rewards system (see: #287074 and #473181)
Also, zapping more will make Stacker News more aligned with what you want it to be: #523858.
@Undisciplined, if you have a second, I found a bug with subscribing and notifications, if you could reply something/anything to these three items, I can get a little more info for @k00b and co.
It should be possible to donate directly to the territory and when the owner went to pay the rent he would only pay what was missing.
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Yes, I agree with this. The proper solution to me is crowfunding. For the most cherished territories there are at the very least 100 active stackers that could donate sparingly throughout the month to reach a 1000 quota. And if the territory is that used it wouldn't even need that much. If people gives out 100 sats in a day, each day for ten days, for posts and comments, why wouldn't they (and me) for the territory itself? For that there has to be a way to make it feel natural to zap the territory just like with any post. And that could be a ranking of territories, like "most rewarding to users".
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These are some good ideas, but isn't the more straightforward solution to subject territory costs to market pricing? Or an auction mechanism?
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At first I see it exactly like a P2P, where your territory is the exchange marketplace, and users can pay a small fee for a right to place an offer (which must always be there to decrease spam), and then you get a fee from the exchange (in this case, the zap a reader gives to a post). I think abstracting things down to a P2P exchange actually solves a lot of situations.
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The current fee structure is too rigid
How many territories are archived per month?
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I haven't taken the time to think through what the right mechanism would be, but you're right that a uniform cost is probably sub-optimal.
I would hazard a guess that some sort of auction would be best: perhaps having an earning goal in mind and selling enough territories to meet it.
The problem there is that I think they want people to be able to create territories instantly and don't want to be organizing and running auctions all the time.
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It could even be an option on your posts, to forward sats to the territory.
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I though it was working that way already, maybe percentages should increase?
A neat balance would be to make publishing on the territory cheaper, but make percentage on the gains bigger. Both parameters should be adjustable by the territory owner. Maybe even granting better deals to the stacker with bigger trust scores, to incentive fidelity.
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They get half of the posting fee, so it's a fixed amount per post.
I believe the idea is to roll out far more policy levers for territory owners in the future.
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65 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 19 Jul
Yes, I think part of the problem is that territory development has stalled as a result of the more pressing wallet needs right now.
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That and the referral upgrade (which seems to be working really well). I'm sure there's no shortage of things on k00b's to-do list.
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Ok, then yes, a policy on a percentage on the gains should be implemented. That's a better deal, because it allows posting to be cheaper, so that you don't risk much in case of bad performance, in exchange of maybe paying more in gain percentage than would solely with a fixed post fee, if the post is successful enough. That sounds like a much better balance and would motivate people to publish more often, for maybe the high post fees are also a reason posting is relatively meagre.
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maybe the high post fees are also a reason posting is relatively meagre
That's part of the spirit of this post. We can directly address this, before the SN team develop new tools, by just zapping good posts a little more. The posting fees only seem high, because of the expected return on posting.
One way or another, it comes back to us and how much we're willing to support the content we want.
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It does comes back to us but protocols are important if we aspire to be a large scale community. It can't just reliably be left to good will, a proper protocol for calculations must be in place so that everything just self-balances. Pure applied libertarianism, for the same reasons.
That'd be cool. You might have to show who is renting and who has fully bought their territory, though. I've seen it discussed once, maybe there's been more talk around that and idk what the right answer is.
Maybe an option for founders to show/hide the territory payment status?
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I agree with @grayruby. This is a great idea.
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I agree. @jeff's been doing fundraisers every month for ~econ, but it would be nice to have this as a general feature.
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55 sats \ 0 replies \ @jeff 19 Jul
OMG yes, and tracking it, would be so much easier too. Attribution especially. I'm terrified I'm going to miss or mismatch somebody's donation with their name.
SN could also just make it public. Through the site.
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This is a great idea.
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Testing
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13 sats \ 0 replies \ @jeff 19 Jul
1 2 3
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115 sats \ 1 reply \ @Athena 20 Jul
I've increased my default ⚡ by 1000%
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Hot damn!
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And go ⚡Zap your fav photos in ~Photography!
Rent is due!
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@Malos10_ shares awesome photos there.
I know this post is about stackers but non-stackers need to understand that I can directly and instantly support a Venezuelan street photographer 3,000 miles away, while I'm waiting in line to order lunch.
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thanks really much man!
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Absolutely! Thanks for this mention!!!
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139 sats \ 1 reply \ @Carresan 19 Jul
Being a regular there!
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I can verify
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Zap big and zap often! Yes, you're right it has to be taught. I see many new stackers are zapping 1 to 9 sats on posts and comments! Does it really count when someone zaps so less?
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That's how I started, so I don't want to judge. My hope is that people will see the value of zapping more.
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I'm also not judging just asking if zapping less than 10 sats really counts for the leaderboard rank?
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I think most days an early zap of just a few sats can probably get you on the leaderboard. I'm not sure, but based on what @0xbitcoiner has noticed, the leaderboard barely fills up most days.
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maybe i explained myself wrong, what i noticed a few weeks ago was that the leadearboard was taking longer to fill up. But the list ended up being completed later in the day.
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I'm inferring "barely fills up" from "taking longer to fill up", which isn't necessarily valid. The point, though, is that it doesn't always take much to get on the board.
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right. i have that idea too. i've seen quite a few with only 1 sat spent on a comment.
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To be on the leaderboard, there must either be a top (near top) comment or a top post (near top) by you.
Just a few early zaps, few comments and zapping on top posts and comments will get you on the leaderboard...
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Wait, do you not use dark mode?
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No, why? should I?
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I guess it's personal preference. I'm just surprised when people don't use it, because I find it so much easier on my eyes.
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I find 'light mode with low backlight and eye comfort mode on' so much easier.
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I am a light mode maxi on laptop and a dark mode maxi on mobile.
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This is very true. Post original content, too. I have found even simple original content does better than most other types.
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82 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 19 Jul
Is it possible to form a group and split the costs of the territory? 10 people paying 10k sats sounds about right.
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No, but I believe that's something they want to do in the future. You could do it informally, but that would require trust and there would be no enforcement mechanism.
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82 sats \ 1 reply \ @jeff 19 Jul
I'm patiently waiting for features to make more engaging incentives local to the territory. We need games. And SN shouldn't be the only game to play. There is so much more you can do, if the incentives were composable, and there were slightly more sats flowing around. I'd build the features myself if I didn't have a day-job.
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We'll get there. It's still early.
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I will tell my personal way. I have been only two months in SN. It’s true at the beginning I was zapping small amounts. I have set myself a bigger amount though still low. I will increase it from today. Personally I have been zapping 21 to posts and 10-13 to comments. Will go up and double them from now on. I know other still zapping more: eventually will get there
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Yeah, zap me big, head to ~science :)
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Zap unto others as you would have them zap unto you.
It’s in the bible people. Haha
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Good point
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55 sats \ 1 reply \ @jowo 20 Jul
wonder if a dynamic price structure for territories could help with this. e.g. price territories as a proportion of total monthly zaps on SN
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It's a good thought. Territory price could just be the previous month's average territory revenue, or something like that.
They've mentioned being very reluctant to change it, because they don't really want people speculating on the price action.
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I just adjusted my default zap today:)
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Awesome!
I'll be curious to hear how that works out.
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and secretly cooking for some nice content other than Bitcoin:)
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Looking forward to it.
I was actually planning on writing about Fallout, but I needed to get this out of my brain first.
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Fallout
the TV show? 😂
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Yeah, it had an insane twist that some of us were chatting about. I think there might be something interesting in it, even though it seemed incredibly stupid.
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21 sats \ 1 reply \ @Natalia 19 Jul
I havent watch any TV show for a while 🙊
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That was the first new show I had watched in quite a while.
If there's a lack of content you like, cowboy up and write it yourself. We just might make it worth your while.
wonderful line right there, just thought it needed extra appreciatin'
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Thank you. It actually did take me a couple tries to craft it.
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Zap till it hurts
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I never cease to be amazed by how staunch Stackers’ support for SN is - to the extent that many don’t mind undertaking an as-yet-losing venture by launching territories
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God bless 'em.
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We need to change the territory fee structure?
bitcoin_mining is new
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What do you think would work better?
Keep in mind that this is the primary way SN raises revenue (at least that's my understanding), so it has to be enough to support operations and development.
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I'm not sure
100k per month is high when starting a new territory
100k is about 66 bucks right now ... what happens when btc price gets to $150k or higher?
maybe we have too many territories or maybe this will get better with sub-territories
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The margins here are tight. If we have 50'ish territories, then SN is bringing in 5M'ish sats per month. That's not enough to support a full-time staff, unless bitcoin goes to $150k+.
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I understand
I don't have any good ideas ... right now
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I never thought about it that way, and I didn't know the territories needed this help so badly. I agree that we should be able to donate directly to them. You've really highlighted an important issue for our community.
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I prefer @0xbitcoiner take on this. What I like of SN is that it tries to develop the community around an internal economy logic and best results will be achieved if we stick to that: no scolding, but incentives. If we require scolding, it means there are no incentives, so the problem is somewhere else. In this case what's failing is the financing scheme, for which my take is the one I replied to @0xbitcoiner comment.
Don't get me wrong on "no scolding", my emphasis on incentives also consider negative incentives: gain and loss. That's the proper compass.
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"Scolding" is tongue-in-cheek. I actually want people to realize that the incentives are to zap more, because they'll get it back in rewards and it helps support the entire ecosystem.
Edit: To the extent that I am actually scolding anyone, it's for not understanding the incentives. People can be as miserly as they want, afaic.
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Oh don't worry! I got it that way, don't worry :P
What I meant was that nothing but the incentives can talk, if we seek for a long-term viable strategy. Posting to motivate people can be a nice companion, but can't be the strategy in itself, it will wear out quickly, even with the best of intentions on the other side.
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nothing but the incentives can talk
That's my feeling exactly. What I'm trying to do is nudge people towards the incentivized behavior, because bitcoiners have strong biases that keep them well below it.
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You did well at reporting the issue. 99% of us are not territory owners so we just assume everything is ok. Now that we know it's not, it's time to set up a proper scheme.
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Thanks for wonderful information 😊
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34 sats \ 1 reply \ @Natalia 19 Jul
self pumping? 😂😂😂 80 now!
but what were you testing?
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I was testing a bug for @OneOneSeven
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