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0 sats \ 9 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Sep \ parent \ on: Why Marx Was Wrong about Workers and Wages econ
It would help if you were actually aware of the views of people you're talking about.
None of us have been surprised that China experienced tremendous growth following the disaster that was Maoism. Markets were significantly opened and wealth destroying policies were reduced.
Everything is about change on the margins. China, despite still having terrible institutions, became much less terrible. That very predictably caused growth.
As per our other recent discussion, this won't become confusing to any libertarian until/unless Chinese prosperity rises to something like that experienced in the free economies.
I argue that China has engaged and is furthering a new model of economy and nation that is both a response to the western imperialism that was imposed upon China (see Opium Wars) and a model that fits within a Chinese mindset.
That Chinese mindset includes a communal concept of organisation that Maoism captured and in turn Deng developed further to incorporate the principles of enterprise that are very deep within Chinese values.
Maoism with its brutality was arguably necessary to make some of the brutal changes to the Chinese societal structures that needed to change in order to logically respond to western technology and ideology.
Just as the brutal capture of Tibet was required to prevent US CIA capturing strategic missile launching sites which would have left China ever vulnerable to a US that was clearly hostile toward Communist China until at least the 1970s.
Look at S.E.Asia and the Chinatowns that occupy prime trading positions within most of the cities there and have done for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
The West which has triumphed over all other cultures and seized global resource hegemony does not understand what it is dealing with with China.
Libertarian ideology may be a logical extension of the thinking that has developed under the era of western resource hegemony but Libertarian ideology is not capable of conceiving let alone responding to the force and logic of the emerging Chinese power projection.
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Argue whatever you like. The well established pattern is that the freer the economy the more prosperous the people. China is not very free and China is still poor. There's nothing particularly interesting about that.
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Agree that freedom is a contributor to economic success. But disagree it is the sole driver.
There are many factors which drive the relative success of a nations economy.
Prime consideration must be given to a nations relative position within the international hierarchy of nations. The USA holds control over multiple institutions of international significance and it is from this entrenched position of organisational advantage that the USA derives much of its wealth today.
Conversely China views the position of regulatory dominance of the USA with some contempt and naturally seeks to advance its relative influence.
The ability of nation states to advance their strategic interests and impose their will over others has significant implications and consequences for the merchants and enterprises and citizens that operate under their control.
It is not simply free markets that matter but rather the ability to dominate and control resources, markets, trade routes, protocols, technology and military assets. All of these strategic considerations require explicit state exercise of power and strategy and cannot be performed by free markets.
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Don't miss the forest for the trees. Lots of nations seek a dominance strategy and only those that first became rich are able to do so. I also remain unconvinced that geopolitical dominance is even worth what it costs.
KISS, freedom leads to prosperity.
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Have you ever lived in a nation on the wrong side of global resource dominance?
Only those who take for granted their relative wealth and privilege would wish to discard it.
That is the privileged and naive viewpoint of Libertarians.
The wealth of The West and the 'freedoms' and 'rights' claimed and enjoyed by those who live in Western nations have been built upon and remain built upon the enslavement subjugation, rape, pillage and theft from all others.
This is the continuation of the struggle for domination of resources that has been the driver of evolution since life began. Nation states now represent the largest most competitive conglomerations of living entities competing in that struggle. To dismiss the nation states crucial strategic role in this natural market competition for resources is to dismiss the reality of life and competition for resources which it creates.
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Every culture did all of those terrible things. It's a complete cop-out to attribute western prosperity to things that were universal.
The accounting also doesn't even remotely add up. There wasn't enough prosperity in the world to support your claim. The west generated wealth far in excess of what it expropriated.
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The national borders of Africa were drawn up in the power centres of Europe.
European imperialism absolutely trashed Africa and major to the success of that process was dividing Africa up into 'nation states' composed of entirely incompatible racial/cultural groups. This enabled Europe to divide and rule and continues to this day.
In Latin America the native cultures were brutally murdered and subjugated for their land, produce gold and silver. S.E. Asia was mostly carved up into European possessions with few areas escaping complete subjugation. Japans complete humiliation not occurring until 1945. China being humiliated much earlier in 1840. Thailand escaped outright capture by ceding more than half its territory and eventually serving as a neutral buffer state between British Burma and French Cambodia/Laos.
Australia, New Zealand and Canada simply seized the land of native peoples and eventually became tribute states to the current global hegemon, USA, serving its 5 eyes surveillance/military and banking networks which are purposed to this day in continuing its global resource hegemony. The Wests relative wealth and privilege is absolutely based upon the subjugation of other territories and this continues. While leadership in technology has been important, it is not the sole factor in creating the relative wealth of The West. There is no way the simplistic notion of free markets and enterprise can be isolated from the crucial and overriding factor of nation state military, resource, institutional and protocol capture and control.
Australia, New Zealand and Canada simply seized the land of native peoples and eventually became tribute states to the current global hegemon, USA, serving its 5 eyes surveillance/military and banking networks which are purposed to this day in continuing its global resource hegemony. The Wests relative wealth and privilege is absolutely based upon the subjugation of other territories and this continues. While leadership in technology has been important, it is not the sole factor in creating the relative wealth of The West. There is no way the simplistic notion of free markets and enterprise can be isolated from the crucial and overriding factor of nation state military, resource, institutional and protocol capture and control.
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None of that is unknown to me and none of it is relevant to what I said.