The true value of "Toxic Bitcoin Maximilism" \ stacker news ~alter

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The true value of "Toxic Bitcoin Maximilism"

417 sats \ 40 comments \ @DesertDave 15 Dec alter_native

Help me understand this mindset. How does telling people to "Have Fun Staying Poor" help Bitcoin or the wider population? Is this an effective way to get people to see the truth that about Bitcoin? Is it helpful for people who are already in Bitcoin some how?

I don't get it. To me, helping people understand something new requires patience, compassion, and understanding. I have never learned something new by somebody calling me names and putting me down. What am I missing here. What is the true value of being a "Toxic Bitcoin MAXI"?

I am open to learn something here if anyone has any good thoughtful responses to these questions. Or if you agree with me, that there is no actual value, to the HFSP mindset, I would love to hear from you as well.

I think we can all agree we would like to see Bitcoin in the hands of more people. How do we get there?

Thank you for reading and commenting.

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118 sats \ 1 reply \ @denlillaapan 15 Dec

“If you don’t believe it or don’t get it, I don’t have the time to try to convince you, sorry.”

7 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 15 Dec

Fair enough. It's definitely not worth spending energy explaining it to someone who isn't ready to hear. But we all have to learn somehow. If someone is asking questions, we should be willing to answer them at least in my opinion.

393 sats \ 7 replies \ @gnilma 15 Dec

I personally think most bitcoiners mean well. They are also passionate and enthusiastic when it comes to sharing knowledge and information about bitcoin. I think the HFSP mindset comes from impatience or frustration when people shut down or dismiss the idea of bitcoin when the idea is shared. Isn't it like that with many people when they share something that they think is a good idea but gets dismissed or ridiculed? I don't think it's wishing ill fate on other people, but more just expressing one's frustration from rejection. At least that's how I see it.

I agree with you that helping people understand something new requires patience, compassion, and understanding. As Jeff Booth like to say, meet people where they're at. Education is key to bitcoin adoption; and you can't educate if you don't communicate.

81 sats \ 5 replies \ @Undisciplined 15 Dec

I think you got it. HFSP is meeting dismissal with dismissal.

Everyone's different and while HFSP is not likely to sway anyone in the moment, it might be an interaction that is remembered later. It's a harsh anchor point for the recipient to think back on and reflect on the time they weren't open to hearing someone out about bitcoin.

230 sats \ 2 replies \ @DesertDave OP 15 Dec

That is an interesting perspective and I could see that. Leaving a very direct and strong impression could definitely get some one thinking down the road. It's definitely important not to be wishy washy in our opinions if we want to leave an impression. So maybe if someone is being completely dismissive, it's a good strategy to leave an impression. Thanks for the comment.

71 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 15 Dec

I would strongly disapprove of saying this to anyone who wasn't being disrespectfully dismissive in the first place.

18 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 15 Dec

Seems like a good idea.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 16 Dec

Human beings saying 'hfsp' to each other accomplishes absolutely nothing. it's the wrong kind of 'advertising' in my opinion... and does not draw more people to Bitcoin, much less the right kind of adults.

People get Bitcoin when they are ready. However being rude and non-constructive with no-coiners accomplishes nothing. I am not like that with people, whether they are into Bitcoin or know nothing about it.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 16 Dec

💯 we can be selective about who we spend time and energy on without talking down.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 15 Dec

I agree. It is quite frustrating trying to open people up to Bitcoin. That still doesn't drive me to have this attitude. Jeff Booth might be my favorite voice in Bitcoin. I love how he talks about it and his approach to educating.

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @SwapMarket 16 Dec

Maxis ridicule people that trade shitcoins to get rich quick. They don't care to learn the difference. I don't care and have no patience to keep explaining. This is Darwinism. "Everyone gets BTC for the price they deserve".

18 sats \ 5 replies \ @Satosora 15 Dec

10 sats \ 4 replies \ @DesertDave OP 15 Dec

Was he born retarded or did he get bad information?

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Satosora 15 Dec

Man, I meant to put this on your other post when you called out coinsreporter lol

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @DesertDave OP 15 Dec

Do you think he will respond? I am not looking to judge him. Just want to see if he's learning yet?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Satosora 15 Dec

Who cares?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 15 Dec

I do. I like helping people learn. And part of that is checking to see if they are learning. Otherwise you don't know if you are an effective teacher. I want to see more people get into Bitcoin. If someone isn't there yet, it is helpful to ask questions and help guide them. I don't have anything personal against him, maybe you do?

14 sats \ 0 replies \ @Eivydas 16 Dec

Everyone buys Bitcoin at the price they deserve to, right? Also, in terms of value, from a purely selfish perspective you'd want Bitcoin to stay cheaper for longer, so you could stack more.

But honestly, I have no problem spending hours explaining Bitcoin to open-minded people. It's just that if you truly believe in the inevitability of the Bitcoin standard, you shouldn't really care that much to convert some stubborn nocoiner into it.

11 sats \ 3 replies \ @softglitter2d 16 Dec

So, let's get down deeper to understand what's going on.

First at all, what is a bitcoin toxic maximalist (BTM)?, answering your question of What is the true value of being a "Toxic Bitcoin MAXI"?

A BTM is the person who teachs about bitcoin and promotes better quality money to ensure wealth protection in the long term¹. Mostly, BTM never offers any single proposal that includes other currencies ² or any type of investment because there's a new state-to-the-art new killer-app modular blockchain that can make your money faster and all the marketing buzzword that have included. This is not only in the crypto space but also in the TradFi markets where you have plenty options in stocks, bonds, etc etc.

So, given the previous explanation, let's answer these questions:

How does telling people to "Have Fun Staying Poor" help Bitcoin or the wider population?

Bitcoin doesn't need your/my help nor anyone, it's the other way, you are the one who needs bitcoin. Telling people HFSP is the consequence, when a person rejects the notion or idea that using bitcoin is good for their wealth without any logical reason³.

Say you want to help someone onboarding to buy their first sats and this...guy tells you that bitcoin:

Doesn't have any value
Ponzi scam
Mining is destroying the world
Better buy web3 killer app coin

I can think many scenarios. As you mentioned, educate needs compassion and understanding, as someone who orangepilled lots of people, I'm trying my best all the time. But the scenario is scary because people want rich-quick-scheme and fall in whatever shady scenario that doesn't have bitcoin.

Happens the next thing, when you say the things as it is (aka shitcoinery or low-time preference) people calls you toxic because...telling the truth. And the truth is bitcoin is we want to see the world rebuilt in bitcoin standard: open, permissionless, transparent. But people come to the space not to bring something to build but more shining things.

I think we can all agree we would like to see Bitcoin in the hands of more people. How do we get there?

How to get there? Offer a better solution to people, some people will listen to your words and start using bitcoin. Some people will just prefer to keep using the allmighty USD and TradFi, others will start exploring the new modular-blockchain with multiple features. You already spoken and they chose the other path. Well...say goodbye to them and have fun staying poor.

Jameson Loop made a long-form article about the history of bitcoin maximalism until 2023. ↩
Some maxis accepts the fact that USDT must exist in the short and medium term. ↩
I made a post about the so-called bitcoin Maxi thing in depth, see #45110 ↩

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @DesertDave OP 16 Dec

That makes a lot of sense and I can appreciate that perspective. There are a lot of ways to view the "toxic maxi" and I can see that in general it is just people that want to do good and help people. I have one friend in particular that I have tried so hard with. And I am about ready to tell him, have fun staying poor. I don't know what else to say. And maybe that would leave a mark and help him move eventually.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @softglitter2d 16 Dec

I don't know what else to say. And maybe that would leave a mark and help him move eventually.

Remember fren, your time is like bitcoin, scarce. Would you spend more bitcoins for this friend? Is it worth? Some people just don't, others maybe. Up to you how to go.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 16 Dec

Yeah. I am learning in general to not spend too much time with those not willing to learn and grow. And this goes beyond just Bitcoin.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @zapsammy 16 Dec

there is a practice among some cultures of "mastication" - chewing the food for the baby before giving it to them. most people are still retarded sleepy babies in their mind and spirit. [retarded means slowed down, as in imposed friction]

unfortunately, the educators have to pre-chew and pre-digest the information for the babies... one wud think that a biological adult can handle the full package of difficult knowledge upfront, but that is not the case. moreover, courage is severely lacking. action is required in order to put the knowledge into effect.

the average IQ of 100 is not what it used to be in absolute knowledge & understanding, and remember that 50% of people are dumber than that.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 16 Dec

I don't think intelligence is the main hurdle to understand Bitcoin. I think it is more about how open and brave we are. Also, if we believe we deserve abundance over scarcity. I think it has a lot more to do with our trauma and life path. I say this, because I understand bitcoin but not because I smart enough. It's because I did enough shadow work to remove the programming that blocked it out.

11 sats \ 3 replies \ @rebel_nomad 16 Dec

There is no value in being a toxic maxi, in my opinion its one of the few things that can bring Bitcoin down...

Nature and war does not take lightly to fanatical stances, regardless of how well construed they might be, something unexpected will always happen!

Now, this does not negate the nature and development arc of Bitcoin, but being right is different from being a nuisance.

What is really perplexing and kinda dark are the statist maxis who go along with all sorts of tax filings, regulation and other BS that will have to fail for Bitcoin to succeed... That combination is seriously weird and counterproductive.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @DesertDave OP 16 Dec

I agree with this overall. And I think there is a spectrum of maxi. Some are super angry people..some have good intentions and just maybe a bit of tunnel vision.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @rebel_nomad 16 Dec

In many ways the tunnel vision and toxicity is necessary to drive price and adoption, especially if its about non-KYC and private use of Bitcoin.

But as a way of living and investing in the future? Risky to blind oneself I'd say...

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 16 Dec

💪

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @flat24 16 Dec

I think I might think the same as you, and share your opinion when you say that you don't see value in belittling others. What I don't share your opinion on is that "I would like to see everyone with bitcoin, or more people having it". I don't think that's the case. Obviously more people will get there of course, but that doesn't mean that it's exactly necessary. As it is, it's fine. It works and carries out its mission. Costing

100
1000
10000
100000
1000000

At any price level bitcoin has proven over the last 16 years that it works and carries out its mission for which it was created.

We must accept that not everyone may deserve to wake up, and that not everyone may deserve to use Bitcoin. I am not the one to decide who uses it or not, and I am not trying to impose it either, it is just a rational thought regarding the human population.

You can't deny the fact that some are worth it and others are not.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DesertDave OP 16 Dec

It's definitely important for me to better understand when I am wasting energy on people. I have dealt with this with orange pilling and other places in my life. It's an important lesson for me.

And Bitcoin doesn't need any of us. We need Bitcoin. Some will make it. And some won't. Thank you for your thoughtful comment.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @flat24 16 Dec

And Bitcoin doesn't need any of us. We need Bitcoin. Some will make it. And some won't

This statement is absolutely correct... In conclusion, we only have one option left. "Burn our ships" and go after Bitcoin until we can no longer breathe.

11 sats \ 6 replies \ @Imyourfed 15 Dec

I’m also wondering about this line, "Have Fun Staying Poor." Saying this to a newcomer could confuse or anger them, and they might end up becoming a shitcoiner, buying cheap crypto. They might think all Bitcoiners are like this and refuse to learn or engage here. Even outside of the Bitcoin topic, being rude, tough, or abusive never ends well and cause damage that’s unrepairable. It wouldn’t cost you even 1 sat to show kindness to someone.

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 16 Dec

Just be nice to people.

One reason Bitcoin doesn't have more 'adoption' and understanding among the public... is due to the piss-poor marketing in my opinion.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Imyourfed 16 Dec

I completely agree

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 16 Dec

Yeah. We can be careful about who we spend energy on without being a-holes. Bitcoin doesn't look good from the outside. The fact that we are gaining "legitimacy" because of politicians isn't great.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 9h

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DesertDave OP 15 Dec

That's how I see it. I am open to other perspectives on how to effectively guide people. I haven't seen it though.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Imyourfed 15 Dec

It's fine use your own way. I really like how willing you are to help people with compassion and empathy! Very few have this

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 9h

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 16 Dec

Toxic Maximalism often refers to people who have seen the shitcoins for what they are- hyped up DINO shit. I think we can agree on that?

Toxic Maximalism in a broader sense may be disimissive of 'normies' who just dont get Bitcoin.

Satoshi said something like 'if you don't get it I don't have time to exp[lain it further'....TM is a perhaps more harsh expression of this sentiment.

I 'm not too worried about others 'getting' Bitcoin- they mostly don't get it because they believe the MSM-mainstream narrative FUD and even where they are aware of the corrupt nature of banking are simply too afraid to challenge authority so ~ when they are ready is fine and exactly what they deserve.

Do not believe and would not express the idea that Bitcoin is a guaranteed path to wealth and security- IMO it is still a high risk revolutionary path- one that you should only take if you want to be part of building an alternative to the monetary hegemony of the Fiat Debt Slavery bankers Cartel.

Until then they can keep believing the banksters FUD and stay poor fiat slaves.

Footnotes