Groupthink as a survival strategy \ stacker news ~culture

1301 sats \ 37 comments \ @SilkyNinja 18 May culture

How many times have you heard or joked about a woman being unable to make up her mind about what to have for dinner?

Have you ever considered it may be part of a survival strategy?

Indecision, deferring choice, might a way to attempt to conform to authority. Our resilience to groupthink and conformity may depend on our self-concept. If we believe we are efficacious individuals, that we are capable of evaluating, choosing and acting in our best interests, we are less likely to succumb to perspectives and behaviors out of fear and insecurity. When people lack the belief that they are capable of acting in their best interests - when they distrust that they are capable of surviving - they must develop secondary social coping strategies in order to personally ensure their survival.

Because women are, on average, at a far greater disadvantage physically than men, they must do one of two things to ensure their safety from men and nature¹: 1) appeal to whatever consensus keeps them “in” the group or 2) hyper-individuate and influence the actions of major parties. We may be so preoccupied with bombarding our minds with ideas to ensure our survival that this second idea of how to survive unsettles us. However, we see this phenomena all the time: if someone goes “against the grain” but does it in a way that benefits, protects and/or uplifts others, they are considered a hero.

To return to that question, “What’s for dinner?”, how many layers of unseen cognitive processes are going on to avoid answering that question so that the woman will not be socially rejected (and implicitly die) for not being agreeable? I don’t know. I’m not a psychologist or social scientist, I am just someone interested in human behavior the way a writer might be. All I would like to propose is that our capacities for groupthink, conformity - and even indecision² - ultimately boil down to survival strategies - and so do everyone else’s.

My next question might be, well, what about people who are lascivious creeps about shoving their ideas and opinions about the world down your throat? Another question for another day.³

Men do this too. However, men, more than women, have an easier time biologically and socially developing their bodies into weapons to defend themselves. Physical confidence is real confidence. ↩
I initially wrote this subconsciously assuming that indecision, deferring choice, is to attempt to conform to authority. As I continued working, I admitted that that may not necessarily be the case, although it is compelling enough as a premise to leave the piece majorly as-is and simply "fill in the gap" with the opening sentence. ↩
I write a lot "like this" but do not share it much because I feel at times presumptive of understanding things I do not. But this is a tiny experiment in writing to test some of my bigger ideas for an audience. Please let me know what you think. Thank you for reading. ↩

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242 sats \ 6 replies \ @Fabs 18 May

I don't know, but it sounds... Possible. 🌞

I've noticed (also in my family) that women often times say / propose something, only to instantly scan the expressions of the people around, after which they either back paddle- or expand on their initial stance.

To me, it bears a resemblance to the idea you're proposing in your post:

A woman's "plan of action" only goes as far as the wants, of the community; if the proposal is unpopular, it's scrapped, no matter if she'd have been right in the end.

In contrast, a man might (with the assistance of the minority) simply knuckle his proposal through, no matter the general consensus.

Something along those lines, ain't it?

Interesting, interesting. I hope that you post about your other thoughts as well, I'd gladly read them. 🤠🔥⚡

Edit: Props on the formatting, I've gotta get on your level!

42 sats \ 3 replies \ @Bell_curve 18 May

Women are better at reading the room

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Fabs 18 May

Absolutely, they evolved to do so.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 19 May

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54 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fabs 19 May

deleted by author

250 sats \ 1 reply \ @SilkyNinja OP 19 May

In contrast, a man

In a separate comment I've attempted to explain that I do not think this is a gendered issue; I do stand that women are more likely to resort to social strategies to survive - and acquire - because of the difference in physical capability.

The man may knuckle his proposal in a group setting; the comparable woman may work exclusively in the shadows to influence the actions of others.

A woman's "plan of action" only goes as far as the wants, of the community; if the proposal is unpopular, it's scrapped, no matter if she'd have been right in the end.

I can't tell if this is your interpretation of my ideas or an idea you are proposing. If it is an interpretation of my work, it is inaccurate (however, that may as well be my responsibility to write better). My general proposal may be summed up as:

People use social strategies that amount to evading responsibility in order to ensure survival. In this example of a man and a woman negotiating about what to eat, the woman is more likely to resort to defer responsibility as a means to compensate for a lack of physical negotiating power.

This is a deeply subconscious process and may still have far more layers of reasoning than I can perceive; i.e., deferring authority while maintaining influence of the end result is a great way to wield power. The answer as to why the party is evading responsibility may reveal more information about ourselves. However, I argue that parties evade responsibility as a strategy to ensure survival.

To address your statement more directly, in my opinion, no, women do not end their plans or ideas at whether or not they are accepted by others. Women are capable of individual ambitions, plans, and ideas that do not agree with others. For all people, there is a certain "math" that goes into how much rejection they can face as individuals before they give in to the authority or ideas of others.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fabs 20 May

"I do stand that women are more likely to resort to social strategies to survive - and acquire - because of the difference in physical capability."

"The man may knuckle his proposal in a group setting; the comparable woman may work exclusively in the shadows to influence the actions of others."

Hm, in other words: If you can't climb the hill, you'll have to resort to passing around it. I think you're right, sounds feasible.

Your reply in general made me realize that my initial reply wasn't quite thought out, and mostly build upon the assumption that I've "got" what you were trying to state.

"the woman is more likely to resort to defer responsibility as a means to compensate for a lack of physical negotiating power."

Again, feasible, and now that I think about it, something I notice around me as well.

Women often try to pursue you to make the call for them; If it doesn't work out, you are responsible, not them.

I find this topic to be very interesting, and hope to see much more of these posts (and you) in the future! 🔥🧡🏆

195 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined 18 May

I definitely think there's something to what you're saying. I've heard people talk about how a large percentage of people form their beliefs purely on the basis of what they think is socially acceptable (as opposed to based on principles or arguments). This is one of the reasons why arguing with most people is so futile.

It's often safer to be wrong together than right alone.

For my part, I usually defer to others on these sorts of decisions, because I know I won't get upset if I don't get my way and that doesn't seem to be the case for people in general. I'd rather not get my way and still have a pleasant time, than get my way and have to deal with someone being a petulant child about it.

85 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 18 May

I'd rather not get my way and still have a pleasant time, than get my way and have to deal with someone being a petulant child about it.

I belong to the same camp.

38 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 18 May

Peer pressure wins again lol

We never grow up, takes too much energy and conviction and courage

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @SilkyNinja OP 19 May

I'd rather not get my way and still have a pleasant time, than get my way and have to deal with someone being a petulant child about it.

This is an interesting perspective on why we evade responsibility rather than immediately getting to a fear of death.

109 sats \ 0 replies \ @SilkyNinja OP 19 May

It’s come to my attention that my example of “women” did not make clear enough that I believe indecision, conformity, and groupthink are behaviors that may be exhibited by any member of the species as secondary social strategies/behaviors to ensure survival by deferring power to another party.

My argument highlighted “women” being indecisive about dinner because at the time I felt that the argument may come to a reasonable conclusion rather quickly.

Now, I realize it’s a relatively innocuous example of this phenomenon of indecision/agreeability (compared to the bystander effect, or how regular men became Nazis) and both stand by the example and wonder how to continue to write (and think) more clearly about the topic. I now find myself asking, "Does agreeability allow evil to flourish?", so I'm pretty happy to have shared this at all.

82 sats \ 5 replies \ @k00b 18 May

“Should I pick dinner or die?”

My wife makes much more sense to me now. I do wonder why she doesn’t feel the threat of death when she complains about my choices though.

222 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 18 May

I'm guessing she views your choices as potentially ruinous: i.e. "Should I complain about k00b's choices or die?"

142 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 18 May

"I will die if I let him pick BBQ again"

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @SilkyNinja OP 18 May

She may find being responsible for choices that influence both of your futures more daunting than you being an immediate physical threat. Why we fear responsibility might loop back around to a belief that we are incapable of individual survival.

Is indecision indicative of a fear of responsibility (some consequence in the future) or immediate rejection? This could be part of the perspective on what indecision is that I was missing when I wrote this initially.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 18 May

Why we fear responsibility might loop back around to a belief that we are incapable of individual survival.

I could see that evolving, if only because it gives those "capable of extra-individual survival" something to trade for what those "incapable of individual survival" offer. You have to cut sections out of a puzzle piece if it's meant to fit with other, partial themselves, pieces. If you're a puzzle maker, you can't be sure the puzzle will be solved as intended unless you create many such codependent partial pieces.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 18 May

Fear of Immediate rejection usually

Relates to Fear of Failure or ridicule

61 sats \ 1 reply \ @cryotosensei 19 May

I don’t know. 🤷‍♂️

Sometimes, women know exactly what they want for dinner, but they don’t want to say it out loud because they want to see if their male companions have been paying attention to their needs. Reading the air is what they prioritise.

Also, I don’t necessarily think it is a gender thing. I can imagine that in collectivistic societies like Japan, a group of ladies will refrain from speaking their minds when they are not close to one another, out of consideration for their friends’ feelings. I watched Korean reality dating shows and struck by how everyone - men n women alike - only started to speak candidly when a brave participant initiated the manner of communication by suggesting “let’s drop honorifics!”

Pls continue to share your writing xP

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SilkyNinja OP 19 May

Hi! I've tried to articulate a few places in replies that I do not believe this is a gendered issue. In another comment I wrote the following:

I believe indecision, conformity, and groupthink are behaviors that may be exhibited by any member of the species as secondary social strategies/behaviors to ensure survival by deferring power to another party.

My argument highlighted “women” being indecisive about dinner because I felt that the argument may come to a reasonable conclusion rather quickly.

Now, I realize it’s a relatively innocuous example of this phenomenon of indecision/agreeability (compared to the bystander effect, or how regular men became Nazis) and both stand by the example and wonder how to continue to write on the topic.

I appreciate your perspective on how this may be expressed more dramatically in other cultures! That wasn't something I'd considered initially!

40 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 19 May

As not a woman, I wholeheartedly agree with you. How you explain it makes a lot of sense to me. Additionally, I also see a lot of things in the context of death. I think it was in this video where I saw every fear reduced to the fear of death.

I write a lot "like this" but do not share it much because I feel at times presumptive of understanding things I do not. But this is a tiny experiment in writing to test some of my bigger ideas for an audience. Please let me know what you think. Thank you for reading

I think it's great! I want to read more of your original thoughts. It's refreshing to read from someone who simply has ideas or concepts they would like to discuss, without caring about being right or wrong.

Your post reminded me of a "human sharing an experience" as @plepoet mentioned here:

I don't like to write from a place of authority on my opinion, I like to come at it as a human sharing an experience.

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @SilkyNinja OP 19 May

Additionally, I also see a lot of things in the context of death. I think it was in this video where I saw every fear reduced to the fear of death.

I've heard generally, when we consider the intentions of our actions they can boil down to one of two things: being out of a fear of punishment or an expression of joy.

I haven't considered completely the arguments, but I want to agree that fear escalates to a fear of death and annihilation.

Edit: I want to clarify that I do not think this a gendered issue. In another comment, I wrote:

I believe indecision, conformity, and groupthink are behaviors that may be exhibited by any member of the species as secondary social strategies/behaviors to ensure survival by deferring power to another party.

My argument highlighted “women” being indecisive about dinner because I felt that the argument may come to a reasonable conclusion rather quickly.

Now, I realize it’s a relatively innocuous example of this phenomenon of indecision/agreeability (compared to the bystander effect, or how regular men became Nazis) and both stand by the example and wonder how to continue to write on the topic.

20 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 19 May

Just realised I typed @plebpoet wrong

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @plebpoet 19 May

the B is the most important letter ha

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 19 May

I'm such a pleb, I write it as plep

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @john_doe 18 May

For the first question I would say 0 times, and for the second, it is an interesting question I never considered. However for the first question I would add many times to buy clothes for example. So definitely I see indecision patterns in female behavior.

During the coronavirus story, I noticed (at least where I was living) that in 90% of the cases people who didn't wear a mask were men, and where women were not wearing masks my assumption was that it was because their boyfriend or friend was not. In the remaining cases, actually less than 10% I think, it was women who were walking alone, likely women (the remaining of the sentence may be very biased) smarter or with better education (by better I don't mean higher education but in terms of quality) than the average and capable of self-reliance.

I think that besides survival strategies, there may be differences at the brain level, or the biological level which impact indecision patterns we see in women. For example I often have been amazed at how much hormones can influence women behaviors in totally irrational ways.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @SilkyNinja OP 19 May

As I've shared elsewhere, I do not believe this is a gendered issue. Please see the below addendum.

I believe indecision, conformity, and groupthink are behaviors that may be exhibited by any member of the species as secondary social strategies/behaviors to ensure survival by deferring power to another party.

My argument highlighted “women” being indecisive about dinner because I felt that the argument may come to a reasonable conclusion rather quickly.

Now, I realize it’s a relatively innocuous example of this phenomenon of indecision/agreeability (compared to the bystander effect, or how regular men became Nazis) and both stand by the example and wonder how to continue to write on the topic.

I think that besides survival strategies, there may be differences at the brain level, or the biological level which impact indecision patterns we see in women. For example I often have been amazed at how much hormones can influence women behaviors in totally irrational ways.

Are you suggesting that women make inferior choices based on some suboptimal design compared to male brains that has nothing to do with ensuring individual survival of the organism? Are you suggesting that female brains act in a way that is disadvantageous to survival by virtue of how they are designed?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @john_doe 20 May

I checked other studies to see what others say (and eventually conform myself to others) I found studies excluding gender in conformity studies. Based on that, I remain open to say it may be a bias, a definition problem, or erroneous conclusions based on biased observations I had.

Are you suggesting that women make inferior choices based on some suboptimal design compared to male brains that has nothing to do with ensuring individual survival of the organism? Are you suggesting that female brains act in a way that is disadvantageous to survival by virtue of how they are designed?

I wouldn't frame it in a negative way, and I would avoid the term "choice" because we do not necessarily make rational choices, this is why I used the word behavior, particularly for groupthink. By the way is groupthink really the use of thought in a group, so is there a choice? Or could we characterize groupthink as an instinctive rally to a group?

So bottom line, I would tend to see women as behaving differently for biological reasons. Not inferior, nor superior, but tending to behave in a group differently than men. Am I wrong by stating that this impacts also conformity? According to some studies I checked earlier yes, however there could be multiple factors, like social, cultural, etc. This could explain why experimentally I saw differences between men and women during the period when people were wearing masks for example (using the word "experimentally" may be pompous since it is just observations based on everyday life).

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @Sirkay 19 May

Now that surviving is for the fittest, I will agree with you that they will appeal to whatever consensus keeps them “in” the group

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @SilkyNinja OP 19 May

When you say "they", who are you referring to?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Sirkay 20 May

The women in this bracket

12 sats \ 1 reply \ @Athena 19 May

Being a woman, I never felt that way. May be I'm living in a whole different world. Whenever I see questions that suggest about 'women getting ignored', I can't resonate it on my personal front. I believe and say everyone must believe in the approach that "yes, it's a man's world by it would be nothing without a woman or a girl."

Let us all make it clear that both men and women are two differently shaped pieces of oneness.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SilkyNinja OP 20 May

I do not understand in what way you have never felt? Do you mean to say that you have never felt indecisive?

I do not suggest in my argument that women get ignored. I present instead an idea to explain human behavior by virtue of a gendered example. Please see the below addendum.

I believe indecision, conformity, and groupthink are behaviors that may be exhibited by any member of the species as secondary social strategies/behaviors to ensure survival by deferring power to another party.

My argument highlighted “women” being indecisive about dinner because I felt that the argument may come to a reasonable conclusion rather quickly.

Now, I realize it’s a relatively innocuous example of this phenomenon of indecision/agreeability (compared to the bystander effect, or how regular men became Nazis) and both stand by the example and wonder how to continue to write on the topic.

Elsewhere, I have written:

People use social strategies that amount to evading responsibility in order to ensure survival. In this example of a man and a woman negotiating about what to eat, the woman is more likely to resort to defer responsibility as a means to compensate for a lack of physical negotiating power.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Coinsreporter 19 May

No, I've never seen someone making a joke of this indecisiveness found in women. Idk, why people put so much stress on such minor things? It's inherent in womanhood, it has nothing to do with survival strategy. Even those women who are living as singles often can be indecisive about what to Cook for dinner.

I've lived alone from 2007 to 2022 and there were times when I couldn't decide what to Cook for dinner? So, as a man of I can be in the same situation, why a woman can't? No matter of joking, it's normal behaviour.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @SilkyNinja OP 20 May

It's inherent in womanhood, it has nothing to do with survival strategy.

So, as a man of I can be in the same situation, why a woman can't? No matter of joking, it's normal behaviour.

Is indecisiveness "inherent in womanhood" or "normal behavior" - which is to say species inherent behavior that has nothing to do with "womanhood"? You're not clear here.

What's the benefit of being indecisive if it doesn't have to do with survival or even resource acquisition? Are you suggesting that people behave in ways that have no purpose and could even be disadvantageous to their survival "just because"? You'd die if you couldn't figure out what to eat.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 20 May

Haha! I can't argue more on this as this simple/normal behaviour of being indecisive for normal things ain't gonna let someone die.

When you can't figure out what to Cook, just let someone else decide it for you. That's easy.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 19 May

When you ask them what they want for dinner, its so indecisive. Then you order what you want, and they eat half of it.

Footnotes