Which type of taxation is best? \ stacker news ~meta

3382 sats \ 29 comments \ @scottathan 6 Sep 2023 meta

If you theoretically had to choose a single type of taxation to run the entirety of the government off of, what would you choose?

It has to be something you feel could feasibly support a government sufficient to protect natural rights and also carry out whatever other responsibilities you may feel are important.

Feel free to debate which is best, or why none should exist, down in the comments. Cheers

Income Tax5.6%

Sales Tax24.1%

Tariffs1.9%

Land Value Tax9.3%

Capital Gains Tax1.9%

Voluntary/Optional Tax14.8%

None (taxation is theft)37.0%

Other (comment below)5.6%

54 votes \ poll ended

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1031 sats \ 1 reply \ @nullama 6 Sep 2023

OK, so, I'll start with the idea that I think it's fair to charge something if you are part of a community (country, state, whatever).

This is because you are using the resources to generate some kind of money back. For example you are driving on roads, using public lights, charging customers that live in those places, etc. I don't see the possibility of selling anything without directly or indirectly using something "public" or common. That's basically civilization.

Now, how much, and which type?, that gets tricky.

I do feel that there should be some kind of incentive to create companies and take risks with startups, etc, and be able to just close shop and start again something new, without too many issues.

I think that at the moment those incentives are a bit too much though, as in sometimes global companies are paying basically zero taxes while individual workers are paying around 30-50% in taxes, which is crazy.

Also, the idea that you have to pay every time you buy or sell land is a bit ridiculous. I'm referring to Stamp Duty. I mean, a country declared ownership of some land, and then citizens have to pay that country a lot of money every time they buy the same piece of land, forever? makes no sense.

Capital gains tax?, not sure, I think it should have some kind of option that if you pass that test you don't pay that tax. Like, for example, if you keep your asset for at least a year you shouldn't pay, things like that.

It's a bit annoying because the central bank can generate new money any time they want, at zero cost, they don't pay anything, but if an individual generates money (income or capital gain, etc), they have to pay, and a lot. It's a bit unfair, even though as I mentioned earlier it's fine to have some kind of tax payment, just not that high.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 6 Sep 2023

I'm with you on a lot of these points. Communal things that you use. Yeah. Tax is reasonably good here. Stamp duty can fuck off, cos some rich kid in a fancy hat century's ago said it belonged to him I now have to pay for the privalage of needing somewhere to live. Capital gains can also fuck off. I'm taking all the risk investing my money, and they're skimming off the top. Zero risk big reward. Capital gains on securities/commodities/crypto should be seen in the same light as gambling. Your winnings are yours. 100% of them. Now, here's where it gets spicy... Healthcare, nope sorry, why should I pay because you can't make smarter decisions and look after yourself. Now people with hereditary conditions they had no choice in receiving, I dont mind paying tax to help those. But people who ate too much, drank too much, smoked too much. Sorry pal, your poor decisions and the consequences of those should not be my burden. Injury in car crash? Car insurance should cover that. The biggest drain on health service providers is avoidable issues, take control of your diet, stop getting drunk every night and ending up in the ER because you fell and sliced yourself open. Some personal accountability should be taken. Your health is your responsibility, you should take charge of it (again, if you're born with a condition, this is your responsibility to manage, but society should be helping manage that, so I'm fine paying taxes to help people not at fault) As should the cost of those things. I'm not advocating for fully privatised healthcare. The US proves that's nothing more than profiteering. But of you are responsible for your issue, then you pay for it. If it's not your fault, then yes, some public funds should be available to you, because we're not a completely isolated society. Inheritance tax can do one aswell. Work your whole life to provide for your offspring, and they end up paying through the nose to have your funeral and then deal with your estate. That's theft.

This went on longer than anticipated. Yeah I don't like giving the govt my money when they piss it away on stupid vanity projects and crap services. And most of them find (see also make) loopholes where they don't actually pay any tax anyway.

808 sats \ 2 replies \ @TheBTCManual 6 Sep 2023

I feel like the term tax triggers me, it doesn't feel like it is a fair market rate bill, I am happy to pay for services, water, electricity, roads, security, internet, etc, and get what I pay for, not be dictated how much I should pay based on someones need to rentseek off infrastructure and services they don't maintain, improve or have the incentive to drive down cost.

If you need money for something larger sell bonds, let me decide if I want to fund it or not and see if there is public appetite for the project or F off

Why I am on the no-tax side is because its a slippery slope, the idea of taking money from others for promises is intoxicating and feeds the parasites and if they can get one they will continue to push to increase it or look for new ways to tax and we end up back where we are now.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @nullama 6 Sep 2023

Yeah, but think about how you are able to generate money.

You are using the community (country, state, etc) services either directly or indirectly to be able to charge for the value you are providing.

You can't just charge someone in a vacuum, you need infrastructure to operate, and you need customers that are using that infrastructure as well.

I see taxes as basically a membership fee for having access to all public goods and the people on it that are willing to pay for goods and services.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 6 Sep 2023

Big cities I get are never going to change, and taxes just make the collection easier when you're threatening people because the population is too large to deal with

I see this more as a small town thing, and maybe it pushes for decentralisation because people would get a better deal/value for money. A local municipality is just another business in name only, they can charge a fee for that and if they need additional capital municple bonds are an option and you motivate for why you need the capital and get the community on board

36 sats \ 10 replies \ @02db2213a7 6 Sep 2023

OK, so people answering "None (Taxation is theft)", can you please elaborate on how do you imagine a functioning government without taxes whatsoever? And please don't bs me on "minimal government" becasue even if the whole government is just one guy doing everything on their own, we still need to pay them somehow.

1 sat \ 5 replies \ @f6287b82CC84bcbd 6 Sep 2023

We love our governments dysfunctional or nonexistent

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @02db2213a7 6 Sep 2023

We love our governments dysfunctional or nonexistent

You know who loves your non existent government? Your neighbours' existent government and their army freely marching into your country. Dysfunctions of governments are something to fix, not a reason to dissolve them completely so your whole country can get rekt by a foreign, hostile power. World is not some idyllic utopia - you weaken considerably your government and other countries will take advantage of that. Sad but true.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @f6287b82CC84bcbd 9 Sep 2023

by you paying taxes you're funding the above - that is war.

War is often based on a false narrative and don't worry, both sides in all conflicts are all owned by the same people.

The only option is if everyone does not comply

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @02db2213a7 9 Sep 2023

Yeah right, good idea to stop funding your own government while you are being attacked, 'coz people in the country of your enemy will do the same... and pigs fly.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @f6287b82CC84bcbd 9 Sep 2023

Yes everyone must stop funding terrorism

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @f6287b82CC84bcbd 9 Sep 2023

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 6 Sep 2023

I wouldn't imagine a functioning state. I mean yes, it would be possible but many of us believe the state is evil and shouldn't exist. If you put a gun to my head (like the state) then I would say make taxes and services provided by the state voluntary. Allow for competition for the services. Let the best service provider win.

People find taxation is theft jarring. I get it. I used to as well. But just because the truth is not accepted by the majority of people or "wouldn't" work doesn't change the fact that in every other situation what the state does would be called theft. The idea that there wouldn't be any other way is frankly absurd. I get it, people have lived their whole lives believing a lie that taxes are morally OK. When you really stop and think it through it isn't.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @nullama 6 Sep 2023

There are some countries without income tax

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @02db2213a7 6 Sep 2023

There are some countries without income tax

Sure there are but they have plenty of other taxes. Besides, the OP's poll is not about your opinion on just income tax.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SatsCats 6 Sep 2023

Most have oil money or predominantly rely on tourism

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @CoSatoshi 6 Sep 2023

There is no good taxation. That's like saying 'which type of cancer is best'

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @Zepasta 6 Sep 2023

Id prefer none, taxation is theft, the money will be wasted in useless garbage and not on roads schools hospitals like mine naive people seem to believe.

"Sales Tax" is the least bad one.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @kepford 6 Sep 2023

There's an important distinction to be made here that is often overlooked and misunderstood. Government does not always equal the State. These two terms are often used interchangeably and that is fine but IMO we do not need a State. We do need governance. That governance can be private and voluntary. Governance has a value. The issue is that the State has a monopoly on violence and many other things over an area of land. This monopoly leads to the problems we see with the State. Because of this monopoly on governance the State steals from the people and call this taxation. There are many books on private governance and places around the world where it is being tried. There are cities even in the US that have largely private governance. We know competition leads to better outcomes so of course it would with governance as well.

The biggest issue with taxation is that we lie about what it truly is. It is theft. It is not legitimate. This is the essence of what is wrong with the State. It seeks to perpetuate itself. It doesn't seek to perpetuate the prosperity of its citizens. The perfect State would seek to obsolete itself, not fight more more power and control.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @scottathan OP 6 Sep 2023

Important distinction, and good explanation. I am talking about the state here specifically, I completely agree that you can have governance that requires no taxation or only requires voluntarily paid feeds.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 6 Sep 2023

Thanks, from my perspective the state is evil and should be made obsolete. Taxation isn't the primary evil though. War and violence are far more evil.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @f6287b82CC84bcbd 7 Sep 2023

War is created from the state. And taxation and inflation feeds that.

Wars and to an extent dangerous pandemics are just mass manipulation to bit two sides against each other for a false manufactured narrative.

We could do way better than that as a human race.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @sudonaka 6 Sep 2023

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Lux 6 Sep 2023

a government to protect natural rights

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ceife 6 Sep 2023

I prefer NONE (TAXATION IS THEFT)

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @SpaceHodler 6 Sep 2023

A question to those bitcoiners who voted for CGT: against which currency would it be calculated? Presumably not fiat shitcoins, where if the inflation rate is 10% and your investment grew nominally by 8%, you lost purchasing power, but the tax man says you made gains and makes you pay tax on those imaginary gains, making sure your efforts to escape inflation lead nowhere.

So, is it bitcoin? Would you have to make gains it bitcoin terms to pay any tax at all?

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @nullama 6 Sep 2023

Well, it has to be the country's fiat, because that's how the whole monetary policy is defined.

In El Salvador for example there is no capital gains for Bitcoin, because it is legal tender. But I don't know how capital gains from other assets(say an apartment) are calculated. If they either use USD or BTC to calculate the appreciation in capital gains.

I guess you have to simply define it one way and be consistent. Similar to using FIFO or other metric.

1 sat \ 1 reply \ @SpaceHodler 6 Sep 2023

In that case I wish those 'bitcoiners' hyperinflation. CGT is the worst type of tax, because it taxes efforts to escape inflation. The higher the inflation rate, the more you pay. So it incentivizes the government to push for higher inflation.

You buy a house for $1m, a year later it's worth $100m because the $ is worth 1% of what it was before, you've made 99% 'profit' and pay tax effectively on the entire value of the house for something that looks like a profit on paper, but isn't one. It's just a successful preservation of purchasing power, so now they have to tax you to make it unsuccessful.

And it's the most immoral tax, because it lies to you that preserving purchasing power is a gain. How brazen must one be to imply that!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 6 Sep 2023

It perpetuates the lie that having more units of a shitcoin = being richer.

It comes from the same gang as the money printers.