Predyx fees adjustment - feedback requested. \ stacker news ~oracle

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Predyx fees adjustment - feedback requested.

1105 sats \ 24 comments \ @mega_dreamer 14 Jul oracle

Hey Guys - after doing some analysis on fees collected on sales of shares - we've come to conclusion that its important to add buy and win fees as well.

Thus we're proposing new fees structure - let me know what you think. This fees only pertain to the markets created by Predyx.

Once we open the market creation to users, the creator will have the ability to set their own market fees. We're hoping to release user created markets sometime mid August.

This is what we had announced a few weeks back: #1014682

Current fees:

Buy Fees: 0% Sell Fees: 0.45% Win fee: 0% until next week. (we'll have to make code changes to implement 1% of the winning amount) Win fee: 1% of the profit after 4th of July.

New fee structure:

Buy: 0.35% Sell: 0.25% Win: 0.20% (on the Total amount, not profit)

Also based on feedback from @Undisciplined we'll be adding additional 1 sat base(flat) fee per transaction. This will probably be implemented by end of July.

Even with the above fees, our markets will still be running at loss as its not enough to get back the liquidity subsidy provided at the time of market creation. This might change when we get enough volume and traders, but we're not there yet.

Looking forward to your support and feedback.

attn: @grayruby @Undisciplined @BlokchainB @Coinsreporter @south_korea_ln @denlillaapan @OT @TNStacker @WeAreAllSatoshi @NEEDcreations @Shugard @Cje95 @SimpleStacker

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71 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined 14 Jul

I think it's fine to have that small of a fee on the total winnings, especially with it being lower than the sell fee.

Also, since you're currently running at a loss the higher buy fee makes sense. Ultimately, I think you want to be incentivizing people to park their sats with you (at least relatively).

The other suggestion I had a while ago was to do favorable rounding. There's no reason to carry around so many extra digits. When sales are calculated round down to the sat and when purchases are made round up.

I imagine you'll continue running at a loss for a bit, but you want to get to where you're at least making a profit on each additional transaction after the market's up. Then you can start working on strategies to recoup the subsidy. I discussed some on the pod last week.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @mega_dreamer OP 14 Jul

Ultimately, I think you want to be incentivizing people to park their sats with you (at least relatively).

Yes I have that in the mind. We'll try to reduce it slowly as we gain more volume.

The other suggestion I had a while ago was to do favorable rounding. There's no reason to carry around so many extra digits. When sales are calculated round down to the sat and when purchases are made round up.

Yeah - there was some changes, earlier when we started - I think we were using native lnd wallets; where we were able to generate invoice with milisats(msat) precision. Then we switched to lnbits for wallet management - by default lnbits only generates invoices with sats precision (not msat) - since then we've also been loosing on the rounding. I really like ability to charge users with msat precision - that's the beauty of lightning. But if we can achieve that with lnbits, then we'll switch to favorable rounding. I'm in close touch with one of the core lnbits dev, hopefully he'll be able to shed some light on msat precison issue.

I'll re-listen to the podcast again. Thanks for all your support and feedback.

51 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 14 Jul

I really like ability to charge users with msat precision

Whichever level of precision you like, just make sure you aren't rounding against yourself.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @mega_dreamer OP 14 Jul

yes for sure :)

51 sats \ 5 replies \ @Coinsreporter 14 Jul

It's cool. It's 1% in total if I'm not wrong?

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @mega_dreamer OP 14 Jul

thanks, its less than 1% in total.

If you just buy + win: you pay 0.55% in total fees. If you buy + sell: you pay 0.60% in total fees.

63 sats \ 3 replies \ @Coinsreporter 14 Jul

I'm laughing at myself. I don't remember what logic I put there to calculate for 1%.

BTW, I think it can be further up to 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 making it 1% in either case.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @mega_dreamer OP 14 Jul

Lets see how it goes - we're really not much interested in creating our markets.

Instead we want to encourage community driven, creators economy and give the creators the freedom to set their own fees and thus make the fees more competitive based on creators reputation. It will be interesting to watch how it will all plays out in the end.

51 sats \ 1 reply \ @Coinsreporter 14 Jul

This sounds great! I'd create markets with 0.5% fee on each. I'm already excited to put in markets on so many topics. I certainly need to understand some logic behind liquidity for independant markets. What if a creator doesn't provide liquidity but the market gets very popular with many traders afloat. Wouldn't that serve as liquidity?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @mega_dreamer OP 14 Jul

Unfortunately with LMSR (AMM - Automated Market Maker) you must seed a market with some Liquidity. That's the rule of LMSR - blame Robin Hansen for it, he is the inventor of LMSR (https://x.com/robinhanson)

Once Predyx starts getting sufficient traders and volume, we'll switch to CDA (Continuous Double Auction) similar to Binance/Coinbase where markets will be made by limit buy and sell bids from the market makers.

Initially our approach will be hybrid - where you initially create a market with LMSR. If your market gets enough volume and traders, the market will auto switch to CDA. After switching CDA, you may withdraw your LMSR liquidity.

In a creator's economy, while you have the freedom to set your own fees and decide on initial liquidity - someone else can create a similar market with lower fees and higher liquidity and sway all your traders to his/her market. Thus your fees and liquidity has to stay competitive.

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51 sats \ 2 replies \ @BlokchainB 14 Jul

Fantastic I like these fee rates! Also the 1 sat base fee is a no brainer

72 sats \ 1 reply \ @mega_dreamer OP 14 Jul

Thanks for your support. Also get ready for more excitement next week - one of the biggest update on Predyx will be dropping next week.

51 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 14 Jul

Awesome

51 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby 14 Jul

Works for me. Let’s see how it goes.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @mega_dreamer OP 14 Jul

Thanks :)

51 sats \ 1 reply \ @denlillaapan 14 Jul

...or even more for sell.

Last night I sold the PSG world cup win shares I had, since they were clearly loosing. I would t care if I paid 1% or even 5% sell fee in that scenario... it's just about getting anything back

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @mega_dreamer OP 14 Jul

Thanks for the suggestion. Point taken. Right now we're just trying to fine tune an optimum level of fees without over burdening our early beta users.

Also, limit buys are coming soon where you can create buy orders like: Buy 10K shares @ 20% probability. The fee for limit buys will probably be very minimal like - 0.15% to incentivize the market makers.

Things will get more interesting when we open-up the market creation where users will set their own market fees. There will be fee and liquidity completion among the creators - which will ultimately benefit the traders. Trying to implement the idea of free markets.

We want our traders to trade like this (this is from our play money markets):

51 sats \ 1 reply \ @SatsMate 14 Jul

These fees are sensible! As adoption of the tool increases, you can assess lowering them

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @mega_dreamer OP 14 Jul

Yes for sure we'll be lowering them as the volume grows.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Cje95 14 Jul

The fee structure looks great! Anything to help out the platform succeed esp. since they are not large at all.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @d680ecaa8e 14 Jul

Buy fees is very low compared to other brokers that goes to 1 % or even more.

51 sats \ 2 replies \ @Macoy31 14 Jul outlawed

stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.