reply on: Peter Todd: Why the Lightning Network better than Monero & Zcash \ stacker news ~bitcoin

945 sats \ 19 replies \ @thrown 23 Dec 2022 \ on: Peter Todd: Why the Lightning Network better than Monero & Zcash bitcoin

Is he saying that LN gives you “very good privacy” if everyone just used their own hosted wallets?

I watched a LN developer give a speech about why privacy is in a bad state on LN and none of them were related to where wallets were hosted.

Maybe the clip just went too fast but this seems wacky.

922 sats \ 15 replies \ @jp 23 Dec 2022

yeah this seems like a very low-quality youtube post... "Monero cant scale. Lightning can. Unhosted wallets FTW"

we really need @moneroshill back here

1746 sats \ 14 replies \ @petertodd 24 Dec 2022

Sorry, but it's a simple fact that Monero doesn't scale. Every transaction is on chain, and you need to keep data for every transaction indefinitely to prevent double spends. That's why Monero can't do Bitcoin-style pruning.

1058 sats \ 1 reply \ @takaponka 24 Dec 2022

You have both good arguments, monero doesn't scale and it's a fact. Tho you don't have to care if you made a coinjoin utxo to open channels, or opening a Phoenix wallet and delete it after a few uses, like Odell advises. Because LN receiver side privacy just sucks for now. But once it will be fixed (silent routing, bolt12, etc ...), won't be much reasons to use Monero. Other thing is LN can scale but need many improvements before we can talk about mass adoption. DN markets don't want to hear about LN for now ...

Let's see how it goes

2219 sats \ 0 replies \ @thrown 24 Dec 2022

Question is if you think scaling Monero is easier and will result in a more simple codebase. I think it likely will, but as you say, we shall see. I am rooting for LN

1648 sats \ 3 replies \ @iguano 24 Dec 2022

also., monero transactions are way bigger than bitcoin transactions, its just not viable for the whole world.

1241 sats \ 2 replies \ @nout 24 Dec 2022

The monero transaction size is afaik comparable to 3 BTC transactions that achieve the same privacy/anonymity (i.e. for conjoin you need multiple transaction end to end)

1868 sats \ 1 reply \ @thrown 24 Dec 2022

What is the average size of a coinjoin transaction? Monero is about 2kb right now I believe

1956 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano 24 Dec 2022

you don't need to coinjoin every bitcoin transaction, if privacy is your main goal, you just don't kyc your bitcoin in the first place.

Also, lightning is pretty private if you know what you are doing.

1205 sats \ 5 replies \ @thrown 24 Dec 2022

You could apply that same exact critique to Bitcoin before Lightning came about.

Well guess what: Layer 2 is literally being researched for Monero right now.

Speaking of on-chain transactions though, the txn size continues to get smaller with each monero release.

If you dislike Monero because it’s simply NOT bitcoin, that is fair enough. But let’s be real here.

2529 sats \ 4 replies \ @0260378aef 24 Dec 2022

You could apply that same exact critique to Bitcoin before Lightning came about.

Just false. Do you know how Monero ring signatures work? They necessitate the use of a 'key image', which can never be deleted, otherwise double spending is possible, and more than that - you can't "prune (most of) the blockchain and just keep the utxo set" - a finesse both common and frequently used in Bitcoin - because there is no 'utxo set' distinct from just, all the outputs in all the blocks. None of the txos are 'spent'.

900 sats \ 3 replies \ @thrown 24 Dec 2022

Monero has had pruning for a while now. https://www.getmonero.org/2019/02/01/pruning.html

If you want to critique the fact that the code improves too often and too fast, that is a different critique but a more fair one.

900 sats \ 2 replies \ @petertodd 24 Dec 2022

Monero's "pruning" is not the same thing as Bitcoin's pruning.

Bitcoin can discard all transaction data from spent transactions. Monero has to retain key images from every transaction ever made.

That is fundamentally different and Monero enthusiasts like you who imply they are the same are quite frankly, lying.

1878 sats \ 1 reply \ @thrown 24 Dec 2022

I’m the “enthusiast” here? I’m literally giving you accurate information. I have no hobby horse or allegiance.

Before you said Monero doesn’t allow for pruning and now you are saying it doesn’t allow for enough pruning.

Monero can prune 2/3 of the blockchain. I think that’s pretty great but if it’s not enough for you, okay that’s fine.

Now where else can we move the goalposts? Or would you prefer to make some substantive critiques instead?

2449 sats \ 0 replies \ @petertodd 25 Dec 2022

Bitcoin can prune up to 100% of the blockchain, and in practice, achieves something like 99%

That's a very different thing than 2/3rd. The two are not comparable.

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800 sats \ 1 reply \ @thrown 24 Dec 2022

Monero allows for pruning, and it is researching layer 2 (just like bitcoin did).