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17 sats \ 6 replies \ @Scoresby OP 10h \ parent \ on: NVK: Lightning does not work for any meaningful value without custodians lightning
I think nvk is saying that self custodial lightning is too clunky to use in production.
I disagree with him as do most people on SN it seems.
I think SN basically sees it as their mission to push back against that narrative. They are trying to make self-custodial as easy as possible, in one of the most difficult use cases (high frequency micropayments)
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I see passive, instant, cheap receiving of small (not necessarily micro depending how we define it) payments as the north star
It's the only path to lightning adoption in commerce, people need to earn with Bitcoin more easily and in new ways than with fiat.
Permissionless revenue is the gateway drug to self-custody and decentralized platforms
The mobile-node mind-virus has completely undermined this.
Btcpay seems to be my only peer in the entire ecosystem with some semblance of a clue.
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Mobile nodes exist for one reason and one reason only, to sell you something. Their entire model, and why there are so many of them, is the minimal friction via the app store to turn unsophisticated users into customers.
To the extent mobile nodes are self-custodial is a distinction without a difference, it's a distinction they use to shield themselves from regulators or to capture an audience for their LSP service.
Since mobile nodes are mostly offline, you have minimal protection since you must be on-line to defend any claims with the chain. If you're running a watchtower, you're running an always online service anyway and may as well have just run a real node.
In most cases, mobile node users are still using a completely trusted flow from the beginning anyway. Fake L2 wallets have taken this a step further and are completely Trustodial, while affinity scamming as self-custodial Lightning wallets.
Mobile nodes do not contribute to the network, as they are completely useless for the passive receiving and bi-directional liquidity which is a pre-requisite for any meaningful traction.
They're expensive since the footprint of a channel, and the liquidity enabling it, is not economical on a per-device level nor are any of those costs recuperated through organic bi-directional re-balancing. Those that use swaps from a Fake L2 are even more expensive.
All these achieve is a placebo effect for unsophisticated users, fee generation for the operators, and giving lightning skeptics plenty of fud ammunition because they work terribly.
Mobile nodes and "Node-less" (someone elses node) fake L2 wallets are an attack on Lightning. You don't run an email server or your businesses website on a phone, there's no reason to run a lightning node on one either.
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So Coinos is actually a pretty good option.
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It's fully custodial and has already been hacked like 3 times. No.
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