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30 sats \ 5 replies \ @kepford 6h \ parent \ on: It's Knot a Serious Project by James Lopp bitcoin
What tends to happen is the pro-government of the time people use Romans 13 and the anti-gov disagree. To me if you read Romans 13 and think it is referring to Rome and Nero you have to throw out Paul as a nut job. I must be referring to the ideal human authorities, not the current one.
I don't think when Paul says "be subject to the governing authorities" he is referring only to an ideal human authority, because none has ever existed.
I think he is communicating a more general principle that Christians aren't called to be political revolutionaries. This would be consistent with Romans 12 ("so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all") and Romans 13:7 ("Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed")
So I think the sense being communicated is that Christians should obey the laws in general, and disobedience would be the exception when another moral principle is at stake.
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Right, I don't disagree. with you there.
I think he is communicating a more general principle that Christians aren't called to be political revolutionaries.
100%
I'm more referring to this.
Romans 13:3–4
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, [4] for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. (ESV)
Clearly Paul was doing good and the church under persecution was doing good and yet he writes "Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval". When we do not receive the approval of the state it doesn't mean we are doing wrong. Or when we do good, it doesn't mean the state will always approve of it. If this were true it surely would not apply to Hitler. And we know Jesus did good works and yet the governments of the Romans and the Jews killed him.
That's what I mean. So we should submit to authority but sometimes we can't if we are to do what is good. Daniel is a great example of this. Jesus is a great example of this. The book of Acts is full of examples.
The way some use Romans 13 is so broad that it boarders on absurdity. I have heard it used to defend the war in Iraq. Which, ironically would a government overthrowing a government... so how does that work with this application of the passage.
To me what makes the most sense is that in Romans 12 Paul describes what Christians should be about. "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them." I don't think anyone reading Paul's letter would think, of course! The Romans are good and doing God's work after reading chapter 12 (I know there were no chapters in the original letter). But they would understand that our response needs to be one of loving our friends and our enemies and realizing that Jesus Kingdom is not of this world. I see the thread through the New Testament of Jesus and His church overthrowing the hearts of men, not the governments of men.
This is why I believe that while I know taxation is theft, it is not my primary concern. My primary concern is the souls of men. Not my dollars. Though, there is nothing wrong with peacefully opposing certain practices of the state or even opposing it altogether in favor of a different form of governance. After all, we do not have the same form of governance they had in the time of Paul and in another 2000s years we likely will not have our current form. The principles still remain.
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I agree, some people misuse Romans 13 to justify any kind of government action and suggest that Christians should just take it uncritically
That wasn't the example set by the prophets, Jesus, or the apostles
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@SimpleStacker this is something we agree on
I think he is communicating a more general principle that Christians aren't called to be political revolutionaries.
And more and more I find both sides of the Christians into partisan politics seeming to think of themselves as politic first. Since the Kirk murder I've been getting both sides. The people appalled by what was doing and those concerned about the politics of those appalled(all my friends are appalled btw).
I'm getting more people concerned about Christian Nationalism. They are Christians. I repeatedly point out that these concerned about it aren't rejecting power. They just don't want that group of Christians to have it. They want the ring of power so they can use it to do "good". Redistributing wealth. Keeping the rich in check. Getting back to science, blah, blah, blah. It is clear as day to me that both sides want power and just disagree about the moral priorities. The left will claim it is dangerous for Christians to have power because of their moral rules. Yet both sides have moral rules they want to force on people.
I think both sides do not recognize how power works and simply want to run over their opponents. I keep gently bringing this up with the more left wing friends of mine. I just get tired of it. I don't like the Republicans for many reasons. The arguments on both sides could be better.
Do you have any advice on getting the non-MAGA Christians that are being manipulated by the left? Its so clear to me what is going on, but I can't force them to see it. One problem is that I don't think these people really understand MAGA Christians, but instead have a cartoon view of them. The reality is that prior to Trump the right had the type of Republicans these people claim to want. The McCain, Romney, even Bush Republicans. I recommend these friends read "Return of the Strong Gods". Only one has so far.
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Do you have any advice on getting the non-MAGA Christians that are being manipulated by the left? Its so clear to me what is going on, but I can't force them to see it. One problem is that I don't think these people really understand MAGA Christians, but instead have a cartoon view of them.
I wish had some advice, but I don't.
Those who have a cartoon view probably just watch too much mainstream media. My dad is like that... as well as a few other friends. Basically, people who live like conservatives but are deathly afraid of Republicans because of what CNN/NYT/etc have fed them over the years.
It doesn't help when Republicans lean into the trolling, like "Alligator Alcatraz", or the recent "Gotta Catch em All" posts about rounding up immigrants, and other junk like that.
Mostly, I just try to find common ground with people, and try to get them to acknowledge the kernel of truth that each side holds.
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