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i read the luke dashjr hit piece.
it's wrong. basically the entire article is wrong.
i'm (obviously) not on luke's side, but guys this is just a sloppy low quality propaganda piece.
first of all: sharing private messages is not cool. for many obvious ethical reasons. but one reason that is often overlooked is that sharing private messages often puts them out of context and makes it easy to construct a false narrative without understanding the conversation
with that, let's look deeper into the article published by "the rage":
the rage: "dashjr... proposes the implementation of a multisig quorum on bitcoin that grants a designated group of people the ability to retroactively alter data that is hosted on the blockchain"
there is no discussion of "altering the data that is stored on the blockchain" anywhere in the screenshots provided.
luke discusses a hypothetical mechanism that would allow knots node operators to avoid downloading "spam" that's already in blocks.
imagine a hypothetical knots client that syncs blocks with a delay of eg 1 hour. when it downloads a block (late, on purpose), it pings luke's server and asks, "hey, is there any spam in this 1 hour old block?".
luke's server responds with a list of transaction IDs that contain "spam", and provides a "zero knowledge proof" that proves to knots nodes that those "spam" transactions are valid, without having to download them.
this is the magic of zk proofs and we don't need to get into how it works. suffice to say that the reason bitcoin nodes download transactions is to verify that they're valid, and if there's a way to verify without downloading them then the node can continue functioning without having to download the "spam".
so now knots have a mechanism to avoid "spam" on their computer while still validating the chain. this doesn't remove the "spam" for the chain. it is still available on clients that don't run knots (70%+ of the network). core nodes continue to function as normal, with "spam" and with no issues, and continue to be in sync with knots nodes. the only difference is that the knots nodes can avoid ever downloading "spam", while staying on the same network
the rage: "luke dashjr plans hard fork"
this isn't true and it's a misunderstanding of what luke is saying. his messages do not describe a plan to hard fork bitcoin. he's referring to a technicality, saying that whenever knots nodes use a mechanism like the hypothetical knots node i described above, every time they avoid downloading a transaction they technically hard fork. but just technically, not really. it doesn't split the network, and those hypothetical knots nodes remain fully compatible with core nodes. core nodes can continue to verify, their chain is not censored, and they're fully synced with knots nodes.
the rage: โ€œright now the only options would be bitcoin dies or we have to trust someone,โ€ dashjr writes. The proposed solution would require a consensus change, activating a bitcoin hardfork.
the quote about "we have to trust someone" is taken out of context. luke is literally saying in the convo that thanks to zk proofs and his proposed solution, they would NOT need to trust anyone.
the second part about a consensus change is made up. nothing in the screenshots suggests a consensus change. and i explained above that the "hard fork" bit is just a technicality. in this hypothetical design, there would be no chain split, and core nodes would remain compatible and uncensored.
the rage: dashjr reveals that public letters are being drafted by third parties to seemingly support the sanctioning of illegal content on the entire Bitcoin network.
the leaked conversation does not AT ALL mention a public letter that supports sanctioning illegal content "on the entire bitcoin network". luke is asked by his conversation partner a legal question, whether or not an op_return relay network will be perceived by authorities as illegal. luke replies that he can't answer that question because he's not a lawyer, but his understanding is that a group is working on a formal letter that addresses that legal question.
as far as I can tell that hypothetical letter is a simple "legal opinion", not a letter that calls for sanctioning transactions on bitcoin.
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fyi, they hypothetical design of a knots node that i provide above is just that: hypothetical. the leaked dms don't go into implementation details at all so i had to fill in the blanks. luke might've had some other design in mind. but my description is conceptually correct, and the article's isn't.
you can go back to the leaked screenshots and re-read them and tell me if anything there contradicts the hypothetical design I offered (nothing does).
also, an important point is that the entire leaked convo is hypothetical. people are allowed to have hypothetical conversations. that doesn't mean there's some conspiracy. everyone I know that discusses this issue in private has brought up all kinds of weird ideas to me that doesn't mean they actually plan to implement them.
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my conclusion is that this article is a hit piece, and not a particularly good one.
the most charitable explanation i can come up with is that the author misunderstood the leaked messages and wrote the incorrect article based on that misunderstanding
but honestly it really seems that this isn't the case, it seems like the author was employing a lot of motivated reasoning to arrive at the conclusions in the article. the goal was to make luke bad, and his words were manipulated for maximum effect
this isn't the first time "the rage" is doing this. last time it was a fake news article claiming that google is about to ban self-custody wallets from the android app store. it was based on the author's borderline malicious interpretation of the google store rules, to make them look like they're against self-custody.
that was incorrect, but the fake news article got so viral that google itself had to issue a clarification saying that they have not and will not ban self-custody wallets from the android store.
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perhaps most disappointing was seeing many big names from the "anti-knots" camp jumping on this and declaring that luke is working on a hard fork, that "they knew it" and that soon we will be getting "airdrop fork coins" to sell. all of those things are false.
this is, as always, a nothing burger. it's pretty obvious to me that this proposal never gets implemented, and even if it did, it does not censor the network and does not split the network, and remains fully compatible with core.
it's actually, dare i say it, a pretty good hypothetical solution (to a problem that doesn't matter). i wish they'd implement it. but they probably won't.
do better everyone.
Udi can be such a champ when he's not trolling, shitposting or posting reflinks to FTX. More of this?
I have one note:
this is the magic of zk proofs and we don't need to get into how it works.
I'd argue that no, we really do need to get into this if/when this is ever being pitched outside of the scandal circuit of course.
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I have only seen the bad Udi. This sounds like a different guy.
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I've had a few wholesome convos with Udi in the (distant-ish) past. I had changed my opinion and avoided him at some point when it was almost only trolling and bad takes / seeking controversy, but if I'm honest, it would actually be rather pleasing to get based Udi back sometimes. Even if it's just once in a while, like in this instance.
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126 sats \ 0 replies \ @adlai 26 Sep
He used to hang out at the Tel Aviv Bitcoin emBassy to help educate newcomers, and also represented maximalism at a few debates. I think he just got burned out after spending so much of his goodwill.
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how does the zk proof work?
what are the advantages of this approach over utreexo where you download (to verify) but don't save the transactions?
"technically. hard fork but not actually a hardfork" wtf. seems intentionally confusingly worded. no wonder it leaked and set off alarm bells. don't blame the haters, blame the bad communicator.
Luke IS asking us to trust him. Most of us know how transactions are verified by now. the zk stuff is reaearchy and black magic.
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how does the zk proof work? what are the advantages of this approach over utreexo where you download (to verify) but don't save the transactions?
A merkle tree IS A ZK PROOF. You prove something (an item is a node/leaf of the tree) without revealing the whole knowledge (all leaves).
It's used in Bitcoin for transactions - a more zk-proof-esque usage is in web crypto. When you connect to a website, the exsistence of a certificate revocation can be proven without downloading all certificates - just a few nodes in the tree.
Cryptographers often consider things like merkle trees or signatures not ZK proofs but to be categories on their own ... but they totally do prove a statement without revealing all the knowledge.
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Think about it this way: if you run wasabi wallet, you're not hosting any BRC-20s either, thanks to BIP-157.
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this like a better lite client spv right?
still not a verifying node if you do this though. just a better / safer light node.
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Yes. Thus, if you skip any transaction, even based on ZKP authoritarianized with some multisig, you're also not a verifying node
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how is that a hard fork though?
any more than an spv node is a hard fork.
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I think that's the point? It doesn't have to be.
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I'm not sure there is an implementation of this yet. It would could be quite involved and self-defeating, if the zk machinery ends up being less efficient than just downloading and verifying the spam.
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I mean, is Luke asking? Or is that a private chat conversation.
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and provides a "zero knowledge proof" that proves to knots nodes that those "spam" transactions are valid, without having to download them. this is the magic of zk proofs and we don't need to get into how it works.
I know how zk proofs work. I know what spam is. This, however, I find puzzeling. Isn't it subjective what spam is? How would you even automate the detection, let alone proof it?
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103 sats \ 1 reply \ @optimism 27 Sep
Dumb conceptual implementation:
  1. Enhance STANDARD_SCRIPT_VERIFY_FLAGS to detect more patterns - per Luke's 2023 proposal
  2. Run your prover over the process to discern the flags
  3. Provide the flags and proof in a blockfilters-like structure
  4. Serve headers and flag structures, and let operators decide what they download
  5. Peers with similar flag-filters could exchange data between them
But the problem is that ultimately you will need people outside your totalitarian moralistic bubble to serve you these proofs, and that's why it's a bad idea to propose this after you've just made enemies of everyone outside said bubble.
It would've in my dumb opinion have been better for those that do not want to serve nor possess any content that goes against their moral compass to just run an SPV node...
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Does this flagging process use ChatGPT or other AI system, by any chance?
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yep, that was such a terrible article i hope their shit got hacked or something. The rage ha always been bait-y in their writing but this one was incredible even for them. Prolly will never read them again.
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122 sats \ 2 replies \ @leaf 26 Sep
I am not convinced.
The mere consideration of such a change where a small group are given any such power should be absolutely and utterly rejected by anyone interested in keeping bitcoin trustless and uncensorable.
There is a such an obvious slippery slope from supposedly trusted individuals removing illegal material to outright censorship of transactions they don't like.
And then there is the ocean lawyer contacting mining pools, which Adam Back corroborates https://x.com/adam3us/status/1971330468961542213
Few people seem to be discussing that part which is arguably worse...
I think the whistleblower was right to leak these messages and reveal what is obviously an attack on bitcoin.
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125 sats \ 1 reply \ @tomlaies 27 Sep
where a small group are given any such power
Is it a power? Or is it a service? A service that every user can also choose to not use.
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I'll grant you that this all depends on how it is implemented. Hypothetically, it could just be a service - I sincerely doubt that's what it would be.
For one thing, with SPV clients, I think this service essentially already exists. If someone is willing to trust someone else to validate blocks because they're squeamish about block data, they can just connect to a few nodes they trust with a light client.
There is no need for some complex solution where it's difficult to determine the risks and long-term consequences. Unless you wanted to muddy the waters and confuse the nontechnical. I can see the arguments now: "It is trustless though! Trust us!"
My other point is Why is this service suddenly required now? It's long been known there is illegal data in blocks. Nobody seemed to care a year ago. And with all the financial infrastructure etc. built up around bitcoin, I doubt anyone will.
So why is this narrative being amplified now? If we step back and interpret this in the full context of the knots drama, it seems fairly obvious to me. Ultimately, this is about control. The knots crew aren't getting the code changes they want, and are willing to create a false crisis, slander all other bitcoin devs, roll out lawyers, and more, if they think it'll give them the control they want.
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40 sats \ 1 reply \ @Jer 27 Sep
first of all: sharing private messages is not cool.
My brother always says โ€œNever type anything you wouldnโ€™t want read aloud in open court.โ€
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Indeed. Great advice. No matter the tech, you are inherently trusting the other party as well as your device and servers or protocols.
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Hooray for proper context! Great post.
But it seems like anyone running this hypothetical client can't help the network by forwarding blocks, right?
So if the majority of Knots was running this, then they'd just be like a separate set of private nodes focused mainly on controlling what their node hosts, but doesn't really participate in the formation of new blocks
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Even if you dislike Lukeโ€™s ideas or disagree with the concept of filtering โ€œspam,โ€ itโ€™s fair to critique them but those critiques should be grounded in what was actually said and proposed. Oversimplifying or distorting the technical details makes the whole critique weaker and risks turning legitimate debate into tribal mudslinging. Bitcoin is complex enough without misinformation layered on top...
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Will the devs who pushed this fake news story anyway apologize? I'm assuming they knew the same thing as Udi? So they intentionally used it to scare people?
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