What do outsiders understand about Bitcoin better than Bitcoiners? \ stacker news ~AskSN

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What do outsiders understand about Bitcoin better than Bitcoiners?

523 sats \ 44 comments \ @wackster 1 Oct AskSN

We have a few blind spots. The biggest one I can think of is that people will give up almost anything for convenience.

202 sats \ 21 replies \ @fourrules 1 Oct

That if bitcoin succeeds we're all gonna die?

I think there's a good argument that bitcoin is going to be such a violent and destructive transition that even if it survives Bitcoiners might not.

I think in oppressive times there is a benefit in investing your social position, your local political relationships, even if you technically have no hard assets. Just ask the kulaks.

0 sats \ 20 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 1 Oct

If Bitcoin destroys the USD which is on its way out anyway Bitcoin or not and The Chinese Yuan becomes the dominant global currency.

Some Bitcoiners might have second thoughts/misgivings about undermining western civilisation?

Others might start learning Mandarin.

14 sats \ 19 replies \ @88b0c423eb 1 Oct

I don't believe china will become an empire and the world will learn mandarin the way we speak english today and england then usa became empires. By the same reason I don't believe the world would learn German if Adolf would have won the the war. Those are very complex and rich culture and that's very hard to enforce on others like english and empty culture like the english or even worse the american.

0 sats \ 18 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 1 Oct

You could be right- Chinas approach to empire could be quite different to that the west has taken. They are perhaps much more focused on trade and wealth creation than spreading their ideology, religion, culture and language. English could well remain the main language of business even with China dominating global trade. However people naturally gravitate toward the most prosperous culture as people naturally seek wealth...this is why many people globally have sought to learn English over the past centuries since The British Empire (and then US)came to dominate the global economy. Today China dominates the global economy. The point I would make regarding many Bitcoiners however is an exceptional arrogance and assumption that USA will remain the dominant culture and economy when it looks from where I stand that USA is in serious decline as a global super power while China appears to be on the rise. Bitcoin could end up being a neutral safe haven refuge into which western capital flees as Chinese wealth comes to dominate global banking and finance...similar to how British elites established multiple offshore tax havens as they declined.

14 sats \ 17 replies \ @88b0c423eb 1 Oct

I agree that USA has a lot of arrogance as a country and culture while china is more humble. But on the culture side, USA has no idea of how important cultivating virtues are. Europe with all its problem still is the biggest source of philosophy ideas and closest to the truth in many areas. If this whole world fiat confusion comes to a halt, the place I would be would flourish the most is Europe. An example of that may simply be things like btcmap.org, europe has the most node runners and tons of nerds self-hosting a lot of other stuff.

0 sats \ 16 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 1 Oct

Yes Europe is more cultured than US but China has a stronger productive economy and unity in terms of power projection. Europe has been militarily and monetarily subservient to the US fore decades. Europe lacks unity and sense of purpose despite its rich history. China has a deep sense of being the centre of the world which could be seen by some as arrogance but they have in recent decades been humble while building their wealth and power. For China to reverse engineer the wests monetary hegemony is I believe already underway and quite openly declared as one of their primary intentions. Europe is mired in diversity of culture and lacks cohesion required to exert significant power projection.

14 sats \ 15 replies \ @88b0c423eb 1 Oct

China companies are not profitable and rely on huge subsidies when not not even the companies have the state as a shareholder which is the case in many. When fiat fades away and clean all the malinvestments we will know how real and big the chinese economy really is. Real economy is where there is freedom to exist family business and make profit, a lot of profit.

0 sats \ 14 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 2 Oct

China operates a One Trillion Dollar annual trade surplus. The Chinese government operates many of the key strategic companies such as power generation, rail, communications and heavy industry and generates huge revenue while supplying the raw inputs to the competitive sectors at lower cost than any other nation can. Try running a cartel or monopoly in China and you will be crushed- ask Jack Ma.

USA and Europe have operated trade deficits for decades and are in chronic societal and economic decline. Their governments are owned by corporate sponsors. In the west capital directs governments. In China the government directs (big and strategic) capital. As a result China is winning the trade war. They can and did allocate the capital to corning the market in rare earth refining. Now Trump must beg on his knees for the rare earths US military and manufacturing need.

While I agree BTC gives a free market in capital I think you underestimate the significance of state directed capital allocation when it comes to power projection and international competitiveness. There is no 'free enterprise' without the provision of property rights and security which only government can provide. The many bad governments do not negate the importance of the role of government in the wealth of nations.

There has never been a wealthy nation without the government playing a major and significant role in that wealth. Chinas government, composed of 80% trained engineers) is simply more focused and motivated than the corrupt corporate captured crony capitalism governments of the west.

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153 sats \ 3 replies \ @79c9095526 1 Oct

It isn't going to fix everything.

7 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby 2 Oct

I do wonder how many bitcoiners take the "bitcoin fixes this" literally. You are hitting on something, though.

132 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker 2 Oct

"Bitcoin might make this a bit better" just doesn't have the same ring to it

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @leaf 2 Oct

I also think this. It's is essentially impossible to predict all the changes that bitcoin will bring. And some of them are bound to be profoundly negative, even if it ends up a net benefit overall.

I believe early internet enthusiasts also claimed similar things to "fix the world". The internet has brought so many good things. But now we have propaganga on steroids and a huge loss of privacy. People are losing their minds due to information overload.

Many bitcoiners, imo, like early internet adopters, tend to be dogmatic and look at things through rose-tinted glasses. Bitcoiner's deeper consideration of the topic doesn't prevent outsiders recognising their common tendency to gloss over the potential negatives.

200 sats \ 3 replies \ @k00b 1 Oct

Wanting good money doesn't mean you want to think about it.

101 sats \ 1 reply \ @wackster OP 1 Oct

enjoying thinking about money in the abstract feels like a pretty good indicator of whether someone will be receptive to Bitcoin.

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @fourrules 1 Oct

I never cared about money before bitcoin. I always had an instinct that it was vapour, valueless.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker 2 Oct

Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity."

SimpleStacker's Corollary: "Never attribute to stupidity what is adequately explained by laziness."

35 sats \ 8 replies \ @k00b 1 Oct

Bitcoin is a threat to the dollar. I know Saylor has his regulatory LARP, which afaict most bitcoiners have internalized, but the dollar is dying with or without bitcoin ("there's no stopping this train" as Lyn Alden says), and it's hard to imagine the world adopting another fiat hegemony while bitcoin exists.

50 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 1 Oct

Payments hegemony historically derives from trade dominance. USA was the dominant nation in global manufacturing when it gained monetary hegemony. As was Britain. Now China is the dominant global economy in terms of production of manufactured goods and consumption of commodities. Bitcoin may have a role as a neutral SoV refuge / safe haven for wealth and capital but in terms of trade payments (ie SWIFT) China is trending and positioned to gain dominance way ahead of Bitcoin. Bitcoin is barely used globally as a MoE except on SNs!

28 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 1 Oct

Fair point. I'm super ignorant of this stuff. I can imagine China only accepting yuan for trade and everyone bending the knee.

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 1 Oct

Nearly all countries have a trade deficit with China and so paying with Yuan and receiving Yuan makes sense as they are not ending up with a pile of Yuan but simply saving the cost of conversion to other currencies such as USD or Euro.

China is already rolling out its digital trade payments systems like CIPS and mBridge which are considerably faster and cheaper to use than the SWIFT system.

https://cryptonews.com/news/shanghai-digital-yuan-center-propels-chinas-ambition-in-global-payment-systems-heres-how/

I doubt they will force other nations to denominate trade with China in Yuan but rather that most nations will choose to as the ability of the US force them to use USD declines.

Most Bitcoiners see BTC as competing with the USD winner takes all style - I see the Chinese CBDC Yuan and other digital trade payment protocols (including stablecoins) as the greater medium-longer term competition facing Bitcoin.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fenix 2 Oct

I think it's really simple for people to adopt another fiat currency instead of bitcoin. Because they're really stupid and prefer to remain enslaved under the myth of governments' authority and their fake money rather than adopt bitcoin and the responsibility it demands.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @anon 1 Oct

Outsiders understand this better than bitcoiners?

14 sats \ 2 replies \ @k00b 1 Oct

I was thinking about how they imagine bitcoin is for a bunch of crazy anti-government types and illegal use cases. So maybe it's not that they think bitcoin is a threat to dollar.

It's that they think Bitcoin exists to threaten the dollar.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 1 Oct

They are correct in that thinking, but Bitcoiners may be in error in assuming Bitcoin will inevitably replace the dollar, as the Chinese are much better positioned to determine their currency is used in trade payments. It is in MoE dominance that monetary hegemony is gained. BTC being increasingly seen as and used primarily as a speculative asset does not challenge directly challenge either the dollar or the Yuan as they compete for global MoE dominance.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 1 Oct

Indeed. They would probably describe it as being for criminals more often than a bitcoiner.

14 sats \ 2 replies \ @OT 1 Oct

Generally most people that understand Bitcoin own some. There are rare occasions where they don't.

I'd say that outsiders might understand better that it is still a risk.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 1 Oct

Agree, although I would guestimate that maybe less than 5% of the general population understand how the fiat debt based monetary system actually operates while probably more like 50%+ of Bitcoiners do.

If you do not understand fiat you cannot really understand and appreciate the true value and importance of Bitcoin.

And yes there absolutely are still risks facing Bitcoin but if you want to be part of the peaceful revolution building an alternative to fiat debt slavery then Bitcoin is a very good option. We have to try!

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby 2 Oct

Yes! I've had the experience a few times of speaking with a bitcoiner who has been in bitcoin for a long time and who is super involved in the industry and also pretty knowledgeable -- and who then just casually says drops "in that case, bitcoin goes to zero and we try some other chain."

It's startling, but healthy I think.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @zapsammy 2 Oct

there are too many bitcoiners who still do not understand how to live well; they keep screwing themselves, yet praise bitcoin as the savior; everyone else keeps suffering as a result, whether bitcoiner or not;

when i meet people with common sense who are not bitcoiners, it's refreshing; people with common sense who are masters in their craft are even better; meanwhile, most bitcoin meetup-goers get drunk and sing "pump-it-up," while talking about how stupid the rest of the "uninitiated" population is;

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @cryotosensei 2 Oct

If you don’t live in an oppressive regime, you can find other ways to build wealth besides Bitcoin