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100 sats \ 6 replies \ @unboiled 17h \ parent \ on: What I *still* cannot understand is the tone-deafness and absolute fantasy... bitcoin
It seems like an awkward stretch to assume that out of all the groups making up the current Western sphere, bitcoiners would be the ones "living in the forest in a sackcloth citadel."
Governments are failing at retaining citizen with means to finance their programs. The only reason for them to stay is if they have a way to insulate their funds from the government's greedy grasp.
Even the most patriotic/altruistic ones will be forced to leave if the governments start closing the escape hatches. Or end up in sackcloth with the rest of the net-negative (economically speaking) majority, clamoring for more distributions from a fantastical parallel dimension where modern monetary theory can be made to magically work by manifestation alone.
We are and I am discussing/exploring the considerable obstruction that exists in western democracies to MoE use of Bitcoin.
It does not seem you are addressing the same issue or responding to my comments in context.
Regardless the first point was a dig at Darthcoin and reinforcing the point that for Bitcoin utility to be widespread and useful it needs to be able to be able to be used easily and lawfully- and currently it is not.
Second point- I assume you are referring to taxation and fiat debasement (indirect taxation) but that is not the issue being discussed. Certainly agree western liberal democracies have been failing miserably to apply a coherent program of economic development for decades and are clearly now losing competitive advantage and strategic control of supply chains to China, but again, that is a different issue to what this thread was about.
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It does not seem you are addressing the same issue or responding to my comments in context. Regardless the first point was a dig at Darthcoin and reinforcing the point that for Bitcoin utility to be widespread and useful it needs to be able to be able to be used easily and lawfully- and currently it is not.
I'm using it both easily and lawfully, currently even multiple times a week. And have been doing so, albeit more infrequently, in at least 3 other jurisdictions over the past 6 months.
You're limiting your point of view by discounting how easy it is to use btc outside of wherever it is that you are not able to. How hard does your government need to tighten the screws until you start considering other options? And how hard until those with means do?
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You have changed the subject but ok lets go with that.
Where are you able to use Bitcoin as a convenient and legal MoE without complex and impractical recording of all transactions to account for potential capital gains tax liability?
El Salvador?
Where?
Not in most liberal western democracies- and in most autocracies MoE use is outright explicitly banned.
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You have changed the subject but ok lets go with that.
I'm a bit confused as to how I changed it. Didn't you write this?
for Bitcoin utility to be widespread and useful it needs to be able to be able to be used easily and lawfully
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Maybe a language barrier thing on my end.
Where are you able to use Bitcoin as a convenient and legal MoE without complex and impractical recording of all transactions to account for potential capital gains tax liability?
I have used it legally frequently in Germany, France and South Africa. Particularly SA has far more merchants compared to the other two.
Other than those, a handful of purchases in Norway and Switzerland. All of those p2p.
Tax liability has only to do with where my tax residence is. At first that was Germany (ie. tax-free after holding for a year.) More recently I gave up that tax residency, meaning I'm not a tax resident anywhere anymore. Yes, that is possible.
I'm looking at options if and where I would want to submit to a tax residency that does not obstruct my use of btc as money, but haven't found a good enough reason for pulling the trigger on that yet.
The only inconvenience my lack of a tax residency causes me is in two scenarios:
- Services that have KYC questionnaires demanding I provide a tax residency (more often than not, they have no reason to have that information), and
- Getting access to new fiat rails. For example, if I wanted to open a new bank account.
And even so: I record all my transactions anyway for other reasons, and that includes cap gains. It isn't as complex or impractical as you imagine it to be.
Yes, recording those expenses is friction, but I find it worth it to be able to document how much we're benefiting from the deflationary nature of btc over time.
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I have heard cgs are exempt in Germany after an investment commodity is held for at least one year but can you confirm that evidence of time of acquisition and disposal must not be held?
If it is not then how the fuck do they enforce it?
You would still have to record each and every acquisition and disposal (ie every single use of BTC for MoE- time, date, exchange rate, amount in clear tabulated form thank you) in order to be able to demonstrate you have held for at least 12 months prior to disposal.
Do you do that?
If not you are(were) in clear breach of German tax law.
Now you say you have no tax jurisdiction- ok good luck with that but please recognise not many people will want to adopt that approach.
For most people the benefits and security of tax residence far outweigh the costs...and going into no mans land is not going to be incentive for most people to adopt Bitcoin as their preferred MoE!
So lawful MoE use of Bitcoin is not available to citizens in the vast majority of global democracies and while we can just ignore the law and probably get away with it, most people will not want to do that either.
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You would still have to record each and every acquisition and disposal (ie every single use of BTC for MoE- time, date, exchange rate, amount in clear tabulated form thank you) in order to be able to demonstrate you have held for at least 12 months prior to disposal. Do you do that?
Yes. Even though I don't need to anymore.
It's not as hard as you make it out to be.
As a side note: It's baffling to me that people who are not doing it, and never attempted to do it in earnest, claim steadfastly that it's too hard.
It's nothing more than a simple sheet that tracks cost of goods sold. And the only good is sats.
For most people the benefits and security of tax residence far outweigh the costs...
What can I say? Some people like to be shackled. Others don't.
and going into no mans land is not going to be incentive for most people to adopt Bitcoin as their preferred MoE!
There it is again. You seem to imagine me living in a desert, camping (illegally of course) behind sand dunes. Dust swirling around my rusty wash bucket.
But I can't blame you for that. That is the results of years of your upbringing, conditioning and indoctrination. The state is really good at that. If they weren't, they'd falter.
So lawful MoE use of Bitcoin is not available to citizens in the vast majority of global democracies
That is blatantly false. I showed you above how it can be done legally.
If you don't want to get locked up by your local mafia, track your cgt and pay up. It's not that hard. I rather enjoy not being locked up, so I've been doing it for years.
If that bit of friction is too much to ask, the imagined burden too much to even try it in earnest, well, then you're still too comfortable to step out of your local fiat maxi bubble.
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