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“ hot take: I get that custodial lightning is not remotely decentralized, sovereign, trustless, etc. - all that good shit …
… but is nobody else outrageously excited by how much of an improvement over fiat it is? not just in its own right but even explicitly in terms of decentralisation, sovereignty, and trustlessness?
it strikes me as a key vector of bitcoin driving jurisdictional arbitrage, for one. say some authoritarian regime cracks down on bitcoin (whatever that ends up meaning in practice, doesn’t really matter) and makes it politically risky to run a node, or manage liquidity, or be seen as “transmitting money”, or whatever. if there is a trustworthy custodial lightning provider literally anywhere in the world you can anonymously spin up the ability to receive payments in seconds. “anonymously” and “in seconds” are both groundbreaking advances if you have any familiarity whatsoever with fiat banking and payment rails.
if you think about it, you actually can’t get this with “real” lightning either. it’s not instant (to set up) and you need to know people who presumably trust you to some small extent to get to the point of workable liquidity and stay there (perhaps under-discussed, but if channel partners “don’t trust you”, they will close or never open, and you can’t use lightning at all. WhO’s TrUsTlEsS nOw HuH?!?)
so yes, this requires trust, but like, fuck me, so does everything in real life 😂 - being overly negative on this strikes me as a kind of core fallacy of appreciating open and decentralized systems: that it’s a spectrum, not a binary. how open and decentralized the foundation is represents the maximum openness and decentralisation of anything built on top, not the minimum!
moving away from completely closed and centralised does not necessitate the opposite, it opens up an entire range of new possibilities, all of which come with tradeoffs. but tradeoffs are relative to circumstances in real life, and in real life, selective trust is very much a thing because We LiVe In A sOcIeTy 🤪 - talking about tradeoffs in absolute terms as if the decision to accept them can be made entirely devoid of context is highly regarded. and this isn’t even to get into the rather obvious line of argument that if you want people to ever get to the extreme, having a spectrum to gradually move along is far more appealing than requiring them to jump in at the deep end. i.e. it’s also amazing for adoption.
in conclusion, don’t be highly regarded. support adoption. agree with my hot take. gm, pv 🤙”
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I'm tired of this false dichotomy that you either have to run a node or use a fully custodial wallet.
You can have custody without the hassle of running a full node.
This is clearly written by someone who is too deep in the hype.
Yes, it's okay to be excited but that doesn't mean the priorities should shift. It's not like there's a deadline so I don't see why we need to hurry and make everything custodial just so things work instead now of taking our time and build stronger foundations and alternatives to custodial systems.
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um ...
"being overly negative on this strikes me as a kind of core fallacy of appreciating open and decentralized systems: that it’s a spectrum, not a binary. how open and decentralized the foundation is represents the maximum openness and decentralisation of anything built on top, not the minimum!"
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What exactly about my comment was overly negative?
I'm not against trust, I use Pheonix. It's just the way this post is framed that I don't like.
Comments like this are sus
if you think about it, you actually can’t get this with “real” lightning either. it’s not instant (to set up) and you need to know people who presumably trust you to some small extent to get to the point of workable liquidity and stay there (perhaps under-discussed, but if channel partners “don’t trust you”, they will close or never open, and you can’t use lightning at all. WhO’s TrUsTlEsS nOw HuH?!?)
Nah bro, I know, you know, we know what lightning is. This is clearly someone trying to muddy the water. There's a lot of purity testing but this is just too goofy.
You ain't gonna make me believe asking my friend to pay something for me is real lightning or that there's no such thing as real lightning so that is equivalent to me paying using my own Pheonix app.
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573 sats \ 0 replies \ @om 7 Mar 2023
I'm okay with Fedimint kind of custody if it's limited to say 1M sats. WoS is much more sus.
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Lol dude needs to learn about eCash, seems the money guys are way too far behind the curve to bother listening their opinions
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He definitely knows about it and my guess is his opinion is also influenced by its existence ;)
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dude, reckoning with ecash forces you to push this argument even further (or just dismiss it as shitcoinery, which I would argue is even more highly regarded)
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I'm going to take this to mean that the OP is missing a lot of information.
(perhaps under-discussed, but if channel partners “don’t trust you”, they will close or never open, and you can’t use lightning at all. WhO’s TrUsTlEsS nOw HuH?!?)
Second, custodians can literally create money out of thin air.
You may have heard this term before as "rehypothecation". Its a danger of free banking but really of custodians in general.
Phoenix and Breez are lightning on training wheels. A custodial model just doesn't seem to have a place at all. I've already set my family up with Phoenix wallets (which I funded myself), explaining the need to backup 12 words and I continue to work with them for the one's who are still paying attention and interested.
What is regarded, is pushing for adoption for adoption's sake with no consideration for the consequences.
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I love Allen, and I think he's right.
I think that Lightning is destined to centralize some more, it's just how the incentives line up. The Lightning network reminds me of the internet itself, in a way.
The internet is more centralized than we would like, and more cucked than we would like. However, even in heavily unfree countries like China, which tries hard to lock its internet down, the free flow of information still exists. There are still more off-ramps and on-ramps than the state can hope to control, and more ways appear every day. Tor, VPNs, nostr, etc.
Lightning will be the same. It will possible to use it without KYC and with privacy. It might require an extra hoop or two, just like the internet now. But in the end, the state is too slow to stop it.
But we shouldn't allow ourselves to be complacent either. We need to keep pushing the boundaries. We have to build more than they can destroy.
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love you too, dad
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family is everything
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Thanks for including the note id so I could zap the original note and also follow Allen
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lightning may just become a settlement layer as well
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Poor eltoo. It had no chance. ;)
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People are getting waaaaay too hung up on this shit. It’s also sad that there’s a culture of “let’s look to what our bitcoin heroes think” permeating the bitcoin sphere.
Glad to see Alan speaking some sense (as per), but ya’ll should be capable of drawing the same conclusions without needing to ask.
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agreed - seems like he is referencing the age-old issue of "not seeing the forest for the trees."
at the end of the day, ya gotta decide for yourself what makes sense
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yeah I'm not really sure why anybody cares, I was just venting coz I was bored this morning. certainly don't expect anybody to care any more or less coz I said it 😕
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A great take, don't let perfect be the enemy of better!
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I can't say that I really disagree with anything in this post. In fact it's been slightly disconcerting to me over the last few years having noticed a decent amount of people expressing views that are increasingly (as termed in the OP) 'binary' in nature as opposed to representing the true spectrum of people's behavior and opinions.
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Yeah, I get it it's fast, feeless and you need no info to sign up.
The last part comes from it being entirely unregulated. So definitely mitigate your risk. As they can rug you at any time. I have a $20 Starbucks Gift card that's half used, so currently Starbucks holds more of my 'wealth' than custodial Lightning solutions. So I'm okay with that risk.
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Based. Bitcoin doesn't eliminate trust. It helps to put trust where it properly belongs.
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