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171 sats \ 0 replies \ @kilianbuhn 25 Mar 2023
That's pretty interesting🧐. I'd like to explore more coinjoin like features than mixing like features tho! 🤟🏻🤟🏻
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27 sats \ 1 reply \ @orthzar 24 Mar 2023
This has me thinking about dust. Spending dust is a potential privacy problem, but spending a bunch of random people's dust is not.
"Give me your dust, your regolith,
Your huddled submicron coins yearning to be spent,
The wretched refuse of your teeming wallet.
Send these, the unwanted, wayward coins to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @selfish_gene 26 Mar 2023
переместить на один адрес незаметно. потом отдай это все майнерам. понимаешь?
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8 sats \ 8 replies \ @TheBTCManual 25 Mar 2023
Going to be interesting to see if exchanges follow the financial incentive to payjoin and offer users more privacy by default or do they bend the knee to the government to allow chain analysis firms to keep tracking withdrawls
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0 sats \ 7 replies \ @bitgould 25 Mar 2023
payjoin does not change any particular exchange's view into their customer data. It's a no-brainer
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0 sats \ 6 replies \ @xanny 26 Mar 2023
Not necessarily.
Whenever you deposit coin into a CEX it undergoes automated blockchain analysis. You can get a high level view of the type of data they collect by putting a BTC address into Antinalysis. (Note: doesn't seem to support taproot addresses yet.)
If the source of the coin throws up flags such as the ones Antinalysis looks for, your account can get frozen by the algorithm.
They're all required to do this by AML laws.
So, yes, if someone pays you some BTC that was once used on the darknet, and you send it to a CEX, you could have your funds frozen while they "investigate." This is usually exactly why that type of thing happens.
And the same analysis specifically looks for signs of "coin mixers." If an exchange sees a customer sending a lot of BTC in that's flagged as being from "mixers" they can freeze the account.
And yet another reason to avoid central exchanges. Bisq ftw.
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1 sat \ 0 replies \ @bitgould 26 Mar 2023
good points
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @TheBTCManual 26 Mar 2023
You make a good point on why they would avoid payjoin, but if payjoin becomes a defacto for most on-chain wallets, you eventually reach a point where all coins in circulation have some history of taint bar the newly minted ones, which become less and less with time, eventually it becomes pointless for a CEX to mark joined coins as bad, because it impacts profitability and they go out of business as they can only accept a shrinking minority of coins for their platforms
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @xanny 26 Mar 2023
This is true, and I think even without payjoin or coinjoin this principle still holds up - over time, as coins circulate, and newly mined coins make up less and less of the supply, it will be virtually impossible for any coin to have not gone through something that analysis would mark as "shady" in the same way that most dollar bills have probably, at one time or another, most likely been used to buy drugs or pay hookers or whatever else.
I still prefer to avoid CEX's if possible, but it's a valid point that this method of analysis will inevitably become useless as coins circulate. The algorithms will have to be adjusted so they only flag coins that are directly correlated with blacklisted wallets or something.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @bitgould 26 Mar 2023
Unlike coinjoin, payjoin leaves no trace. The result looks exactly the same as simple spends with two inputs.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @xanny 26 Mar 2023
The issue remains you don't know the source of the coin of the other people you're payjoining with. If it looks the same as a normal spend with two inputs, and the other input is a darknet vendor, you will also get flagged as such.
As @TheBTCManual points out, and as I agreed and elaborated on here, as coins continue to circulate, this type of analysis will effectively become useless.
However, the analysis algos heavily factor in the number of "hops" between the address they class as shady, and the address you send from.
In other words, coin that was withdrawn from a DNM ten wallets ago is less of a red flag than coin that (looks like) it was send direct from a DNM into your wallet.
Through this lens, it's possible payjoin's ability to blend with other transactions could actually make your coin more likely to get flagged by a CEX.
I say this not to FUD either coinjoin or payjoin, but rather to point out that privacy and CEX's don't really mix.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @selfish_gene 26 Mar 2023
все эти монеты уже были чистыми... майнеры сделали это. почему ни кто не пользуется этим?
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1 sat \ 1 reply \ @fiatjaf 26 Mar 2023
I want to implement that on my wallet, but apparently there is no spec or howto guide. Why?
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @bitgould 26 Mar 2023
Gah, can't believe I didn't link the primary source. Updated so BIP 78 shows above the fold now.
What are you looking for in a howto?
This merged send payjoin PR for the bitmask web wallet could be the basis of a how to: https://github.com/diba-io/bitmask-core/pull/121
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Busybe3z 25 Mar 2023
Let’s pay off people to get into crypto!
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @selfish_gene 26 Mar 2023
придётся сделать это в два раза дороже... ты готов?
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0 sats \ 6 replies \ @BlokchainB 25 Mar 2023
I used jam on umbrel and got killed in fees.
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139 sats \ 3 replies \ @xanny 26 Mar 2023
Check out Wasabi Wallet. Desktop app. Built in coinjoin, very reasonable fees, I think it's even free (minus tx fee ofc) if it's a really small amount of coin.
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @BlokchainB 26 Mar 2023
I Use it and samourai. Each has its pros and cons
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50 sats \ 1 reply \ @xanny 26 Mar 2023
I found Samourai wiped about half my coin in hidden fees. They don't disclose the full cost upfront. Wasabi is fair and transparent so I prefer it personally.
It's a shame too because Samourai is good otherwise.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 27 Mar 2023
I agree it’s decent wasabi Makes it very easy but since they blacklist now privacy maxis hate them. I think use them all none of them are prefect plus if the NSA wants to find you I highly doubt these tools will keep you safe from them
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139 sats \ 1 reply \ @bitgould 25 Mar 2023
I guess that was joinmarket coinjoin, Jam still doesn't support payjoin yet, but they should!
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kristapsk 26 Mar 2023
It's on their TODO list. https://github.com/joinmarket-webui/jam/issues/406
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @moel 25 Mar 2023
Too bad there is no Geyser fund to sponsor wallets to start supporting this easy-to-apply privacy tech 😢
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @bitgould 27 Mar 2023
I heard you loud and clear @moel: https://geyser.fund/project/payjoin
Thank you for the suggestion
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