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I'm just going to ask this the direct way, but it's not meant offensively... just, what you say doesn't compute. If you're doubling down on bitcoin-only, why are you sharing a video from a literal shitcoiner? And not just some doggy coin retard, but someone that literally claims their shitcoin is the real bitcoin.
Please give me some good reasons why I should listen to Mechanic and maybe I'll transcribe the video into an article, let an LLM rip it apart and read the executive summary. But without good reasons, why would I even bother to copy the url into a console window?
Not offended, but thanks for clarifying. I feel like I've got a good read on your intentions, or at least as well as one can guess through cyberspace, and I'm not offended if you think I'm a dumb-dumb, mostly because I already know that's true.
I wasn't doubling down on sharing the Mechanic video. I think the way the fork played out demonstrated that his thesis about restricting data in the manner he hoped to wasn't embraced by either miners or most node runners.
What I was doubling down on was that last comment to Scoresby that I shared. I initially shared the Mechanic video because I think he was dead on about that particular point. And it's something I've been saying since long before he started making a stink about v30 and alienating people. I've got receipts right here on stacker news. No one has yet been able to convince me that miner centralization isn't a huge issue, despite the fact that I'm totally all ears for it. Even though I'm just a plebian and still have to work in an industry that seems to have no intention of transitioning to a bitcoin standard, I'm convinced that most bitcoiners are terrifyingly naive about this. It's why I'm kind of nutty about home mining, and it's what I was insinuating is the reason why somebody downzapped this post about defiant home mining (although I'll admit that's purely speculation since nobody's really claimed it).
hmmm, that got a little convoluted, but I gotta run. I'll try to clarify later. In summary, no need to watch the video. Mining centralization bad.
I think it's good that you're nutty about home mining so I'm not going to push back too hard on details. Just realize that we don't really know how bad it is, also because we don't have a clear insight into all secondary binding factors, like how many of those commercial assets are financed and under what terms. Pool centralization is the most visible, but not the most impactful metric, because pools can be switched out of rather painlessly. But the solution is the same. More home mining. Doesn't matter at which scale for now, and hopefully it won't ever matter, but there's a chance that it will at some point, and then we better have 50% of the miners building their own templates if we want continuity.
I think though that listening to indoctrination attempts by Mechanic is kind of purposely gaslighting yourself. It does not matter what he says or how right it sounds. They attacked bitcoin, and they failed. I feel a very strong need to move on from their malice and actually fix things. Not with a coup, but with real solutions. That get actual buy in. With solutions that aren't divisive.
Because from where I am sitting, what they did, including some of the people still at Ocean despite their bullshitting attempts now claiming that they never believed in it, has harmed the cause we're both behind (a truly decentralized bitcoin) more than it has helped. It has destroyed credibility. It has turned Bitcoin into a clown show and I'd really like to move on. Away with the wannabe authoritarian failures. You cannot top-down force decentralization; you have to incentivize it, and do it yourself.
So I like this post a lot more than the other one.
Now it is I who should clarify I mean no offense in the response below.
can be switched out of rather painlessly
But can and will are two totally different things. There doesn’t seem to be any indication that industrial miners will switch pools when this happens.
I think though that listening to indoctrination attempts by Mechanic is kind of purposely gaslighting yourself.
This might just be a values difference between us. This is the exact opposite of what I’ve taught everywhere from the university level down to my own children. I listen to people who preach things way more destructive than forking bitcoin[1]. You can’t really defend against something if you don’t know what it is. I shared that particular video, because it’s something I had already known was true for years.
move on from their malice
Again, as a pleb who hasn’t seen all the back room arguments and what not, I'm just not as knowledgable about all the mean things he’s done that you might be more aware of. Mining pool centralization is extreme, no matter who’s saying it. Which leads back to…
I'm not going to push back too hard on details
Please do! (If you’ve got the time and inclination) This is the argument I’d personally much rather have…and ideally lose! I’d love to know if pool centralization isn’t as bad as it seems.
one caveat for me personally is wasting time arguing with folks who deliberately misrepresent the views of their opponents. I tend to ignore that camp for sake of protecting my time. ↩
But can and will are two totally different things
Absolutely, but describing will is LARP, since I nor you are clairvoyant. Let me flashlarp your butt tho, just this one time.
There is no reliable data towards how much loss of income corporate miners are willing to bear for compliance (there is no other reason to cut profits down by censoring txn than the overlord exercising their coercive powers) and at what point they start selling off their ASICs. We do have a single data point on what happens when mining gets banned, from back when that was the case in China, but that is a total loss of income situation, not a profitability cut.
However, facing potential AI profitability in a very similar datacenter setup, I think that for many it could be tempting as a great excuse to pivot out of mining, especially if there are buyers for the hardware. What will happen then though is consolidation; i.e. it would make sense for it become even more centralized. I suspect that this is already happening to some extent?
I'm not the one to make you lose your argument though: because I suspect that there are other means to make up for some transactions that need to get censored for compliance, most of all the fact that block subsidy * fx rate pays the mining, not so much the transaction fees. At least not right now.
You can’t really defend against something if you don’t know what it is.
How have you defended against this fork though? Even back when it was just a softfork proposal / wet dream? Perhaps it didn't need any defending because it was doomed, but either way: what did you get from the endless stream of bullshit? I personally tried reasoning with the fork dev but that was to no avail. What have you gained from listening to the bs?
back room arguments
Nah, the most cringe stuff was right on twitter and youtube. Some of it here on SN too. If you follow Mechanic, you must have seen it all, even more than I have because I've been puking every time I see, hear or even detect an insinuation towards these guys ever since they went (what I perceive as) hostile to everyone outside their clique, so I've avoided the depths of their content a bit. Which is why I asked if there was something in that video worth spending GPU time on to edit out all the pukey stuff because normally it is not worth it. It's in my opinion all hollow narrative, zero actual delivery with these guys. Do you think that what they've been doing is honest? If so, what makes you think that?
no matter who’s saying it
To me, everyone starts worth listening to, some (well... many, tbph) lose that privilege as they prove themselves insignificant malicious little shits. Mechanic and co have proven themselves, to me, as exactly shits. They don't pass the filter.
Sadly, it sounds like we’re on the exact same page about centralization. Sad, not for the agreement, but for the unhappy state of that position.
As far as learning what I can from somebody like Mechanic and sharing something that I found interesting, I still don’t think I’m even close to as savvy to all of his actions and positions as you seem to think I might be. I’m not even on twitter, and I’ve maybe seen three of his videos. I get almost all my bitcoin news here, through newsletters, or at meetups. I’m definitely learning now that he’s not popular fellow among folks here! But I shared that video before I knew that. I still stand behind the content. You would too, but as mentioned before, @optimism, you yourself wouldn’t learn anything new, so there’s more than one reason for you to pass.
What have you gained from listening to the bs?
I’m not nearly as deep in this as you, but I didn’t run bip-110, and I can say I did it with my eyes open. That’s all I feel like I really needed from the things I read and listened to on the subject.
zero actual delivery with these guys
Again, not on twitter. I can’t currently name a single person that I know of who works at OCEAN. But they’ve actually delivered the absolute most straight forward solution to the template problem you described above. So that doesn’t seem like a fair assessment.
To me, everyone starts worth listening to, some (well... many, tbph) lose that privilege as they prove themselves insignificant malicious little shits.
I track with this. I just lean way more heavily on ignoring the insignificant but still listen to the malicious, to both double check that I’m not one myself, and to know that I’m pushing over proper steal men.
popular
You're still inside maxi space here on SN, despite scammers dancing on Darths "grave of departure" these days. I don't see how forkers that fail to commit to consensus are ever going to be popular here. It is one thing to criticize the bitcoin org on Github. It's another to turn that into a plot to deceive a part of the community and fork off the main consensus. Consensus follows the common denominator among everyone (explicitly) in bitcoin, and we (as in you and I and all those others that care about decentralization, sovereignty and access to bitcoin for the nickel & dime pleb) are exactly the group that got divided over this. You and I are the ones that lost most. Not the corporate fanbois, not the fiat maxis, but you and I. Literally us. We've lost allies. Thanks to the delusions of grandeur on the part of a handful of influential people that divided our space with lies.
But they’ve actually delivered the absolute most straight forward solution to the template problem you described above.
..
Ocean
I think that the guy that made Ocean what it is, is Jason Hughes. Not Luke, not Mechanic. I.e. he built DATUM and he was not with the BIP-110 crowd per se, and they fucked him when he tried to do the right thing. So you're attributing the delivery to the wrong set of people. Because you seem to believe their lies, and that is worrying.
you have lost the plot @jasonb
can you also tell us about your first world experience in South Africa? also how safe it is?
Woah! Dunno if you went into Zeus mode yourself or just inspired somebody else, but...uh...wow...thank you!
If you work at it hard enough, you too can drive your family into poverty and be chased by pirates through a fever dream of a movie.
Seriously, thanks man!
Tyrants in the house?