Is it ethical to get a fiat loan as a bitcoiner
4575 sats \ 32 comments \ @nymkappa_ 11 Jun 2023 bitcoin
Currently looking to build a house and starting a family.
Getting a loan means enjoying the freshly printed money made possible thanks to fractional reserve, which is the complete opposite of what we aim for with bitcoin.
What are the alternative? I personally can't get a bitcoin backed loan because it requires very heavy bags to get enough fiat for a house.
I was thinking maybe some individuals may be interested in holding a debt asset to make a yield superior to what banks offer. But again in this case, I KNOW that the purchasing power of what I'm paying back is getting destroyed over time, so I also feel like I'm taking advantage of that individual.
Any ideas, tips, experience to share on that end?
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1372 sats \ 0 replies \ @benthecarman 11 Jun 2023
if getting a loan is unethical then acquiring bitcoin is unethical, the person selling you the bitcoin is getting destroyed over time as well
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1270 sats \ 1 reply \ @iguano 11 Jun 2023
We live in a fiat world where the real state it’s inflated by the fresh printed money, so we have to keep playing with those rules until bitcoin wins.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @mudbloodvonfrei 11 Jun 2023
A very good point
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954 sats \ 4 replies \ @mudbloodvonfrei 11 Jun 2023
You have access to two currencies, a strong one and a weak one. Why would you waste the strong one where the weak one would suffice?
There's a name for this law/paradox/theorem, but the name escapes me.
You are faced with a set of choices, tradeoffs and incentives. Your job is to pursue your own best interest without actively screwing anyone over.
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572 sats \ 1 reply \ @OriginalSize 11 Jun 2023
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law
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20 sats \ 0 replies \ @mudbloodvonfrei 11 Jun 2023
Yes! Thank you!
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323 sats \ 0 replies \ @nymkappa_ OP 11 Jun 2023
The best situation would be to find someone who has lot of capital, looking for a steady return beating the bank rates, not willing to take on more risk on the market or others assets. I can offer to pay back in sats as well, a 20 years auto DCA for that person.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheWildHustle 11 Jun 2023
Well put,
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756 sats \ 2 replies \ @OriginalSize 11 Jun 2023
Act in your own best interest, that's about all you can depend on. If you think interest rates are low enough in fiat, get loans there. If you think your Bitcoin should be held by someone else so they can give you fiat, it's your choice although IMHO a bad one.
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566 sats \ 1 reply \ @nymkappa_ OP 11 Jun 2023
If I take a loan overs 20 or 30 years, interest rates are irrelevant. The amount I'll pay back overall will be worthless in purchasing power terms.
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63 sats \ 0 replies \ @OriginalSize 11 Jun 2023
Hard to see how the price you pay for money is irrelevant. This just means you think interest rates are a steal.
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495 sats \ 0 replies \ @notgeld 11 Jun 2023
Totally. Especially if you are able to manage cash-flow to avoid letting your bitcoins sold by a bank.
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256 sats \ 3 replies \ @pillar 11 Jun 2023
I've wondered the same thing myself for a long time. I still have not settled for a final answer.
On one hand, if we take a loan, we are participating in the expansion of the money supply together with the banksters. We are diluting the fiat currency at the expense of everyone. What specially makes this a spicy point in my mind is thinking how I can do this because I am a privileged westerner, and how there are billions on earth that will never have access to such options. In a sense, you could picture being a cantillionaire not as a binary yes/no status, but rather as an spectrum. And in that spectrum, we are much closer to the cantillionarie side than most people.
On the other hand, game theory dictates you should. It's the good old "if you don't do it, somebody else will". Actually, when you think about it, they don't even need you to ask for the loan to expand the money supply. The government-banking cartel will do it anyways as they please. So, why be left behind? It's as if everyone is drinking from the lake, and this will make the lake go dry and hurt everyone, so you wonder if it's an evil thing to do to drink yourself. But, if the lake is going to go dry regardless...
It makes me wonder about the prisoner's dilemma in a moral way, which is something I had never done before. Are the prisoners being evil by incriminating each other?
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423 sats \ 1 reply \ @nymkappa_ OP 11 Jun 2023
I love your "cantillionaire spectrum" idea. That's a great way to put it.
I also agree that in the end, what I do won't matter much as the system is made for infinite debasement of people's energy.
Maybe a moral way to approach this would be to:
a. enjoy my knowledge of the scam and short fiat to the ground by contracting loans to fund my life b. educate as many people as I can, hopefully saving them from a 100% certain melt of their savings purchasing power c. continue building on bitcoin
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200 sats \ 0 replies \ @pillar 11 Jun 2023
If we educated everyone, eventually a distributed speculative attack on fiat would happen.
If everyone heads to the bank and gets a fiat loan to invest in Bitcoin, this pushes the fiat price of Bitcoin up. This sparks a virtuous snowball where there is an ever bigger incentive to borrow fiat and buy bitcoin (as you say, shorting fiat).
You do this fast enough, and fiat hyperinflates away, and hyperbitcoinization kicks in.
So, coming back to the original question: one positive side of taking the loan is you are pushing the snowball towards fiat's death. It's a peculiar "the worse, the better" situation.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @03194c9af6 17 Jun 2023 freebie
Are you going to stop eating because others don't have access to food?
Accelerate. Take advantage of a broken system while you can.
It will end whether we help along or not. Accelerate.
153 sats \ 2 replies \ @tnuts420 11 Jun 2023
i have a mortgage and a car note that are both fiat loans. nothing wrong with taking advantage of the current system. my mortgage is 3.5%, so with inflation they're basically paying me to finance my house. why would i not take advantage of that?
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @nymkappa_ OP 11 Jun 2023
The dilemma here is that your loans are money expansion, and therefore making the inflation problem worst. You are participating in a tiny tiny way in the debasement of your friends and family savings. Of course that's a drop in the ocean, but if everyone thinks this way the problem just get worst.
That being said the said friends and family probably are also doing the same, so maybe my point does not hold.
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200 sats \ 0 replies \ @tnuts420 11 Jun 2023
no, i totally understand your point. but since i'm forced to participate in a broken system, i might as well take advantage where i can. i'm certainly not putting my hard money at risk to secure a bunch of not-so-hard money, unless i have no other option.
does that make me part of the problem? yes, even if it is just a miniscule part. am i alright with that? also yes
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153 sats \ 1 reply \ @cristaiji 11 Jun 2023
I’ve had similar thoughts. Potentially to get a Bitcoin backed loan for a vehicle rather than purchase with bitcoin.
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53 sats \ 0 replies \ @nymkappa_ OP 11 Jun 2023
Yeah for a smaller purchase that'd be possible for me. Few companies offer this kind of service, probably mostly focused in the US.
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121 sats \ 0 replies \ @scottathan 11 Jun 2023
If you are starting a family, they should be the priority. Do what is right for them. If that means buying a house with a fiat loan, do it. There is nothing inherently immoral about using the fiat system when it makes sense. There is, however, something immoral about neglecting the needs of your new family.
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101 sats \ 0 replies \ @Gjoni 12 Jun 2023
Getting a fiat loan is not only ethical, it’s the way the game is played, don’t hate the player hate the game.
One day we might not need to get loans in the same way we do today
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101 sats \ 0 replies \ @Louferlou 12 Jun 2023
Of course it's ethical, ask Saylor about it lol.
The current system is rigged and you can't do anything about it, can't escape it, so find your path just try to be honest and it's ok for me
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100 sats \ 2 replies \ @legxxi 18 Jun 2023
No, it’s not ethical!
That being said, we live in an artificial, unethical and manipulated economy, so one might argue that if everyone else is doing it why don’t you.
It might depend on one’s situation too, it’s not the same to get a loan for the newest and largest TV than getting a loan for an urgent surgery.
However, every time we take a loan, we are contributing to keep alive the fiat system that we despise so much.
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100 sats \ 1 reply \ @TwoLargePizzas 20 Jun 2023
To be fair, loans aren't inherently unethical. Fractional reserve banking loans are unethical.
If you borrow money from your parents and they had to save that money by working hard then what you're really doing is taking their savings and spending it. Assuming you pay back the loan, you're not doing anything unethical because no new money has been created in that scenario. You spent the money and therefore your parents can't.
However, fractional reserve banking allows banks to loan money they don't have. In this case it's inflationary because you can spend money nobody earned.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nymkappa_ OP 20 Jun 2023
Right. Major difference between loan backed by accumulated capital vs loan backed by the central bank money printer.
I'd love to find someone in the first scenario, but that's not going to be easy to find IMO 😄.
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100 sats \ 1 reply \ @TwoLargePizzas 18 Jun 2023
One of the advantages of being a Bitcoiner is that we understand the fiat game better than most.
And in the fiat game, getting a loan backed by an asset works to your advantage. We know that dollars today are worth more than dollars in the future (given a long enough time frame).
The fact that a bank is willing to loan you dollars at an interest rate lower than inflation to buy an asset that's increasing with inflation is incredible to me. Assuming you can afford to pay the interest, this trade feels too good to be true.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nymkappa_ OP 19 Jun 2023
This is why they eventually fail as they need to take on more and more risk in order to generate lot of profits 😂
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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @ursuscamp 12 Jun 2023
You have you live your life
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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @2bithits 12 Jun 2023
Keep an eye on interest rates & be prepared for them to go in either direction.
If you can, borrow a little more to DCA into BTC before the halving
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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @rijndael 12 Jun 2023
You should do whatever makes the most economic sense for you. Bitcoin only works if the incentives are aligned. If bitcoin requires you to act against your self interest, then bitcoin fails.
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