0 sats \ 7 replies \ @elvismercury OP 5 Jul 2023 \ parent \ on: Fresh under-rated voices in btc? bitcoin
This comment is a decent example of what I'm talking about. "Statist" is such a meaningless term, as if the 99% of planet earth who has no thoughts or opinions about btc forms a conceptual class that you can reason about as if it were a coherent ideology. And yet this is key piece of the lingua franca of btc discussion, recited like a litany.
Zooming out, the truth value of Austrian economics is not the issue; the issue is that everything sensible that can be said about that was said long ago. The body of work introduces no new signal into the discussion. And whatever btc's effects on the world will ultimately be, they will likely be a function of dynamics not captured in the current "btc podcast / Medium / nostr circuit" echo chamber.
I'd like to hear those opinions and perspectives.
Statist is not a meaningless term. I have no idea why you think this but my guess is that you think anarchism is ridiculous. For those that don't know a statist is someone that believes in the legitimacy of the state, IE nation states. That they exercise their power from a position of legitimacy. The opposite of a statist is an anarchist. Now there are all sorts of places in between these two poles but that's the gist. Many, but not all of the economists from the Austrian school are statists. Bitcoin attracts those that believe the state has far to much power.
As far as the echo chamber goes there are new people learning about anarchism, bitcoin, economics everyday. Just because this is all old hat to you doesn't mean it adds no value. Most people including me were not educated in these topics in government schools, media, or popular culture. Complaining that you hear to much of this fringe perspective on the world is a bit silly if you ask me.
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You're right, "statist" is not a meaningless term. Its near-zero utility for saying anything non-trivial about the 99% of people on the planet who could be technically considered "statists" is my grievance with it.
Put another way: almost everyone who currently has, or ever will, adopt btc in any measurable way will be a statist -- the appetite for anarchism is, and will continue to be, nearly zero, especially by people who've ever got within rock-throwing distance of actual anarchism. And yet if you randomly pluck from the public discussion on btc in most places, you'd get the impression that "statist" is a rough simile for "pedophile" and "idiot" and that the case for anarchism as a viable means of human organization has been proved.
If that's where you want to make your intellectual home, cool, but you'll be living in a pretty tiny house. I'm interested in finding people living in bigger houses.
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I think you may be equating two different things here. Evangelism and community. Bitcoin naturally attracts many like-minded people. People that as you point out are a small minority of their communities world wide. Much of what you call an echo chamber (which is fair in many cases) is just like-minded people sharing knowledge with those interested in learning more about economics, political thought, and bitcoin. I see no issue with this. The number of people discussing the ideas of liberty, freedom, etc is still small but it is growing IMO. You are correct about many viewing "statists" as idiots but that is not me. This is just immaturity or bravado and it is not unique to bitcoiners. Try listening to any "mainstream" political person talk to a libertarian or anarchist if you want to see the same attitude.
Now, on the evangelism side I agree with you that calling someone a name is not effective. I know a significant libertarians and anarchists and not one of them behaves in this way. I very rarely bring up any of these ideas with people unless they ask or the conversation naturally flows in the direction. Bitcoin will grow in adoption because of utility not ideology. I believe this is also true for the downfall of the state's dominance. Now I am under no illusion that I will see this but I think it will happen. Not because people are convinced but because the better system will win.
As far as you last comment. I would rather have an intellectual home that I have questioned, tested, and know than be with the crowd. My home (my mind) is mine. That said, my home is a part of a community filled with people from many different perspectives. These are valuable perspectives even if they are not aligned with mine.
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I think this is well-articulated and I appreciate how you're engaging with me.
Maybe how I should have opened this whole thread relates to your last paragraph. I think there really is something important to btc, but it's such a giant and foreign thing that I want to understand it as fully as possible to know how to allocate my beliefs about it, which is a consequential thing to do, since it essentially means allocating my money to it. My approach, then, is to seek out as much info as I can, from as many perspectives, and really challenge my model of reality, since the stakes are high.
This is very hard to do now, since so much ambient discussion springs from a very small cluster of related ideologies. I'd hazard a guess that most people I come across on Twitter, or who write thought-pieces on how Austrian econ is The Way, have never actually read any of it; and even fewer people have read other perspectives. Rather, they've just absorbed a certain tribal narrative and now wear the proper flair.
This is the opposite of the approach a person should take in trying to get at the truth. Which is why I'm frustrated.
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I appreciate your engagement in discussion as well. I think I better understand where you are coming from now than I did in the original post. I don't doubt you are correct about many not reading things for themselves, I mean that is pretty much the status quo for most subjects. I would be careful though to not assume folks that use these catch phrases don't have more depth or value to add. I think what you are describing is very similar to how I lost interest in the tech press / podcasts years ago. It was just the same thing over and over again but when I was new to working in technology it wasn't old to me. I learned a lot but I grew and needed to move on. Maybe you can be one of these folks that takes a look at bitcoin from new and different perspectives and contexts. I am very interested in the perspectives of people coming from non-western nations and how they think about these things. How people in oppressive states have been able to use bitcoin, or what issues they have with it. Gladstein talks about this a lot. As you mentioned I'm interested in the history of money and how it developed. Money is something very few understand. I would say I'm still learning about it myself.
I would not label myself as a maxi but I understand the tactics they use online. I also understand why so many bitcoiners focus on these "old news" topics. We have new bitcoiners coming everyday that don't get why bitcoin was created. They just see $$$$ and wanna piece. They may not dive deep but they likely didn't dive deep into the status quo either.
Just a few more thoughts.
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What I want to see more of is people taking action vs. talking about theory and when will bitcoin moon or when will enter famous name here get on board. Learn to use bitcoin. Set up a node. Set up a lightning node. Learn how to use privacy tools. Learn about to teach others because if we are right about bitcoin many are going to need help. Not only that but this knowledge will be valuable for us and those we love.
During the pandemic I realized that I wasn't truly living my vision for the future. Not really I mean. I can't tell you what that means for you, only myself. I for one am tired of the political folks that are all talk and now action. They cry about the state taking their wealth but take zero action to prevent it. They complain about things that they can improve without a revolution or change in leadership. It is easy to complain but a waste of time.
If you believe bitcoin is the way forward use it. Learn as much as you can so when people are ready to learn you can teach them. I bet there are people ready to learn around you already. I know that has been the case for me. I'm not pushy about it. I don't act like a jerk. I just talk and try to answer questions.
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You obviously don't get outside much.
Get outside of your circlejerk, you statist cuck, go out into the wilderness alone, and tell me how much of an urge you feel to murder the first person you come across, you fucking statist 🤡🤡🤡
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