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103 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 13 Jul 2023
So happy for them. Everything is so thoughtful.
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61 sats \ 7 replies \ @SovranSystems 13 Jul 2023
In the future, it will be good to connect it to one's own electrum server. Also, how does the lightning node part of it work,meaning the mechanics behind it? Does it really run a full node in the browser?!
Would it be redundant to have a feature in the future where it would connect to one's own lightning node. Or would that be just like LNbits?
Mutiny Wallet seems like Alby but more private, as Alby wants an account with an email.
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1059 sats \ 6 replies \ @ae52f929c 13 Jul 2023
It is really cool. This goes into it and mentions Flow 2.0 https://blog.mutinywallet.com/mutiny-wallet-open-beta/#just-in-time-channels.
Flow 2.0 appears to be the service Mutiny is using in order to provide liquidity to the wallet users. It is called an LSP and it is created by opening up zero-conf channels. This link goes into it: https://voltage.cloud/blog/voltage-announcements/introducing-flow-v2/?ref=blog.mutinywallet.com
So the wallet is a node and can hold on-chain Bitcoin. To move into and through the Lightning network you need liquidity from the Lightning network to open a channel. This is a problem.
So Mutiny solves this by creating a wrapped Bolt 11 invoice to create a just in time channel for your node (the wallet). Usage of the LSP does not violate privacy or introduce compromise in security. The Bolt 11 invoices are wrapped and include your preimage hash which an LSP node is not aware of.
Once funds are in your wallet on the Lightning network you can go to your settings and you will see how many channels you have open. It shows you a very easy to understand split graph of your inbound and outbound liquidity from all your channels.
This is a big step because now you can self host all the backend stuff for privacy while not having to worry about the nightmare of managing a live node and balancing channels just so you can have liquidity and privacy.
Here is the cool part. Mutiny lets you configure and set up your own LSP anyways. So you still have as much control as you could possibly want. They literally just took multiple user experiences and compressed it down to one pipeline. Incredible work.
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0 sats \ 5 replies \ @SovranSystems 13 Jul 2023
Thanks for the very helpful response! I appreciate it. My questions were an attempt to understand it. As, I just set up a wallet and sent on chain to lighting very quickly through the interface. It was smooth. I am used to managing my own node with lighting loop and I was wondering a bit more how they were doing it.
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13 sats \ 4 replies \ @ae52f929c 13 Jul 2023
Yeah I was suspicious of the LSP stuff but it appears they do some wrapping with Bolt 11 invoices that make it secure. Really crazy stuff. I wonder how close we are to Lightning based cold storage since all you really need to back up with Mutiny is the seed phrase. Wallet don't need to be always online which should make cold storage options for lightning more feasible.
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100 sats \ 3 replies \ @TonyGiorgio fwd 14 Jul 2023
Appreciate the thoughtful answer!
We have an article going out next week that explains how voltage helps give some privacy to mutiny users when it comes to the invoice.
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6 sats \ 2 replies \ @ae52f929c 14 Jul 2023
Nice! The most common feedback I have seen so far is people claiming that Mutiny is not "really self custody" since the liquidity is not managed by the user. I don't think people understand liquidity and personal funds should be separate anyway and Lightning is confusing in this way since they can often be the same source.
Mainly I don't think people understand how the Bolt 11 wrapping works and why it is secure. I will admit that through the research I did to answer the question I found this info but it was a little spread out across a couple different pages. It was a little difficult for me to understand too. Still don't fully but just enough.
I think that article will help out a lot in giving people a better understanding. This is 100% self custody and even if people disagree that you shouldn't need to custody the liquidity in the first place Mutiny still allows you to set up your own LSP and manage it by whatever way you desire which may need to be emphasized for the extra paranoid.
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9 sats \ 1 reply \ @super_testnet 15 Jul 2023
Mutiny is awesome and probably the best thing in bitcoin for the past three years, BUT it is not quite 100% self custody. It's more like 96% self custody. When you receive a payment, they open a just-in-time channel to you and push an amount to you that is equivalent to whatever the sender originally sent, minus a fee. In return, your browser immediately gives the preimage to the payment hash of your original invoice, allowing Mutiny to settle the payment from the sender.
By giving them the preimage, however, you're giving them custody of that money, at least until the just-in-time channel confirms. The reason is because the money in the channel contains your payment, and Mutiny can easily take that money back, while still keeping the money the sender meant to go to you. All they need to do is double-spend the utxo that went into the channel and return it to themselves. Which is very easy because unconfirmed payments are cancelable.
As a result, whenever you receive a payment that causes Mutiny to open a channel to you, they have custody of that money. Typically this is only for a brief period of time, i.e. until the channel confirms, but that means (1) it's not 100% self custody and (2) it's not necessarily "for a brief period of time." How long they have custody of your money for is completely up to them. You do not have control over that and there's nothing you can do to stop them from keeping your money indefinitely -- forever, even.
So yeah -- mutiny is awesome, and it's even 96% self custody. But it's not 100% -- not yet -- and I think that's important to point out. Appreciation for these guys and what they are doing is great but their product is only nearly perfect. (I estimate about 96% perfect. Which is awesome! Like, jump-off-the-walls awesome! It's so cool and mesmerizing I am flabbergasted by the implications! But it's not quite perfect. Not yet.)
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1001 sats \ 0 replies \ @TonyGiorgio fwd 15 Jul 2023
The LSP can be turned off in settings, but yeah having a non-JIT channel option could be introduced in the future.
And it's the LSP that this could happen with, not us. The Mutiny team is never in control of funds and never handles payments. When we add multi-lsp support, that'll still be true and you can distribute who you decide to trust for this, if at all.
But yeah appreciate the support and explanation!
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34 sats \ 1 reply \ @ae52f929c 13 Jul 2023
It looks like they are still working on Redshift which is the feature I am most excited about.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @inscitia 14 Jul 2023 freebie
What is it?
10 sats \ 0 replies \ @SovranSystems 13 Jul 2023
This is soo cool!!!!!
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @lpop4254 13 Jul 2023
When do you think you can start
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @TonyGiorgio fwd 13 Jul 2023
ššš
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Kathleen_Croteau 29 Feb
Is it still in beta?
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Diablo 15 Jul 2023
Love the idea of a PWA wallet. Apple has too much control over its devices. The implementation is straightforward, but the barrier to entry is high.
I would consider this wallet to be at least an intermediate learning curve, and not newbie friendly.
To activate a channel, you must deposit at least 50,000 sats with 10,000 sats going to creating a channel. Depending on what part of the world you live in, that can be a large cost.
Correct me if Iām wrong, but Phoenix requires 10k sats too but no minimum deposit after that. Breez requires 2k sats.
Onboarding new users will probably remain as WoS (easiest but custodial), Breez, and Phoenix. Nevertheless, Mutiny is a great addition to the lightning wallet marketplace.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ursuscamp 14 Jul 2023
It's very cool. I played around with it last night. Some issues I noticed last night:
- Still pretty slow making payments.
- Frequently payments would time out (but still go through).
- I paid from WoS to this wallet, but when I would try to pay back out to WoS, it couldn't often find a route. It could not consistently find a route for payments over 2k sats.
I am sure these things will improve with time.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @badabing 14 Jul 2023
Amazing what you guys are doing!
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @faithandcredit 14 Jul 2023
I am a toxic person. I just am. But when is someone going to make "Family wallet"
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @deepologic 14 Jul 2023
Very nice UI processing! Simple and intuitive.
We need this for mass adoption <3
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 14 Jul 2023
Mutiny man here! Love the wallet guys!
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jgbtc 13 Jul 2023
How does it handle not being always on? Like if I close my browser do I have to worry about channels closing?
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