1065 sats \ 89 comments \ @thomaswolf 21 Aug 2023 bitcoin

Please explain to me how slow finality, high power costs, very limited governance, and overall utility make a currency the best cryptocurrency.

We can beat the encryption. We can do it with less (almost no) power costs. We have instant finality. We have active governance and a wide range of utility with further applications. We fixed transaction fees, particularly ones that do not scale well with mid-market price - we have feeless or extremely low-fee tx fees on chain, no need for a lightning network via 3rd party software.

Yet, people cling to this idea that because Bitcoin was the first cryptocurrency, it is the best. However, they can't make a valid argument to prove this to save their lives. That's the point of this post; I welcome challenges in the comments.

Before anyone even mentions the economic rule - scarcity, take note that gold and silver are required in every industry humankind has. Bitcoin scarcity is built only on user support... it's already been rebuilt into multiple better currencies, and all of them are subject to the same user support.

Those projects have since been buried by modern ones that meet the specs I just mentioned above. Do you know what will happen to miners when the blocks are finished being mined?

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101 sats \ 1 reply \ @edulopesf 21 Aug 2023

Well, I ain't no hardcore, I like the idea to have other projects besides BTC, but IMO, what makes bitcoin different than anything created later is the fact government folks can't put it down... Of course they can make everything more difficult but it would be a useless war.

About the concerns you've raised, well, I'll try to give my OPINION about each: 1 - Encryption - As far as I know, I don't know about anyone 'beating' BTCs encryption, btw if someone is able to do that against bitcoin, theoretically you can do the same against any one crypto and the regular banking industry.

2 - Power Costs - That's also debatable, major miners need to invest on renewable power sources if they want a chance to operate on profit. Also the fact they need to make a high investment on such physical equipment creates an entire industry that helps to solidify the whole project.

3 - Governance - You might have a point here, but what really matters for most users is usability. Also, this is also debatable since nodes have the ability to accept (or not) any changes on BTC code.

4 - The fact we Bitcoin needs a 3rd party projects (Lightning) to make transactions faster and cheaper has major benefits such as SAFETY and STABILITY. If anything goes wrong, it'll happen on the second layer while the core keeps okay.

5 - The fact users keep to Bitcoin is basically the sum of everything beforementioned here and also the natural marketing that has... especially the fact no one knows who is true creator. It gives bitcoin an whole especial symbology.

6 - Scarcity - Everything is user support. Even gold and silver. Industries need it because users need the final product. The same can be applied to BTC.

7 - Miners - That we really don't know, but 'till the mining of the last block, probably there will be so many users that they will be able to make a living on the fees... I really don't know for sure about that but certainly someone more into bitcoin than me will be able to come up with a better answer.

For everything I typed here, I don't think other coins are necessarily 'shitcoins', there a lot of course, but I believe others coins are also responsible to create innovation, take smart contracts as an example, as far as I know that's an Ethereum implementation at first.

That's something bitcoin could use on a second layer I think...

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 22 Aug 2023

Encryption - Even Bitcoin hardforks have improved encryption, such as ZCash - and guess what, they are moving to PoS like any smart project leaders would, which also has better encryption (depending on the project).

Power costs are never a good thing. I mined 100% renewable until ETH went PoS and did well. At the end of the day it's unnecessary and money spent on power and equipment you think will reinforce the industry when that equipment is heading to landfills could be better spent on more crypto. This is so pathetically true, miners actually mine at a loss - and a lot of it is bad for the environment.

Governance - I know I have a point because I know what a project with active governance looks like and it isn't a stalemate with hardforks.

Lightning node - A good chain doesn't need this feature to be external, nor can you rely on external software. That's a flawed way of viewing a positive where there is a negative. All it does for the positive is move assets faster than Bitcoin can, despite having a multitude of cryptocurrencies that go A to B for less than a penny in about a second.

Bitcoin being the "Coca-Cola" of crypto. Well, even Coca-Cola has changed a lot over the years. This mainly threatens the hard forks, eventually, people will break the correlation with Bitcoin in the alt market because it's foolish and modern projects will naturally take sway over time.

Gold and silver are required elements for every industry. Bitcoin could go tits up tomorrow and it wouldn't affect anything but a tiny % of the financial sector.

Miners at the end = there won't be any money in it, hence all your ASICS and old GPUs heading to landfills and no more $ to be made for miners because Bitcoin scaling won't allow the level of congestion required to turn a profit.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @03365d6a53 21 Aug 2023

boosting as these questions keep coming up and I'd like to see more ELI5 type answers

There are many topics here, and I'll let others address each of them them directly, if I had to try and cover everything in one sentence though

Bitcoin was created to seperate money from state

Small blocks and PoW are therefore a feature as nodes can run on consumer hardware (not vulnerable cloud farms) and transactions are verified by reference to a physical energy source (not a founding group who are forever in control)

If a state can control it (ie, censor transactions or influence development) it's not free money.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kenn_b 21 Aug 2023

Bitcoin was created to seperate money from state

that is a good one. If we cannot even separate god from state and that should be fairly easy in our modern age of science and facts, how will we do that with bitcoin since. We are doomed :)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 22 Aug 2023

There is no official religion or language for the USA.

1 sat \ 3 replies \ @elvismercury 21 Aug 2023

I'm going to assume good faith on your part, which I'm a bit suspicious of, since you haven't even asked a hard question, and answers to the questions you did ask are everywhere. But maybe you're new. So I'll pick governance

When I started in the space I thought the no-governance aspect of btc was a bug. Now I see that it's one of its most important features. The whole point of a decentralized cryptocurrency is that both nobody and everybody controls it. Or more specifically: getting anything to happen takes such a groundswell of distributed advocacy and concrete action that you get certain assurances from it.

Despite what some people think, not everything needs to be decentralized / ownerless in this fashion, but it's important that money is. Any project you're imagining that's "better" on this account is not better. You might ask, if the governance is so great, what it actually offers vs the product of some random company? Lots of the 'better' projects you allude to are living in the stupidest of all possible worlds: with the gross inefficiency of blockchain, and the fact that some entity controls it.

EDIT: this SN post is timely.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 22 Aug 2023

First, I love the mission behind DeFi / Satoshi's vision. I'm just not in love with outdated software, and that is what Bitcoin is. Outdated software.

Doesn't mean I don't love the tech, it gave birth to modern projects.

I understand the confusion with bitcoin governance because in a way you're right, but if BTC governance was functioning well, there would not have been several hard forks to improve the chain (and the forks, albeit far less popular, are better cryptocurrencies).

Take BCH for example, while I am no fanboy of it, it really is just Bitcoin 2.0 and made several good improvements all while keeping an active governance.

Long story short, Bitcoin doesn't change and miners are mostly too stupid to even realize how they are contributing to the lack of positive change.

No progress is not progress. This isn't Yellowstone.

2 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury 22 Aug 2023

I take back what I said about good faith. These BSV talking points are just willfully deluded.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 22 Aug 2023

And yet you failed to make a logical argument for Bitcoin

I wasn't referring to BSV either. I was talking about what they named that fork after, the real vision.

0 sats \ 75 replies \ @Ed_Relight 21 Aug 2023

Slow finality Transaction is final if it has a near-zero probability of being reversed. Reversing a transaction = 51% attack. Bitcoin has the highest cost of 51% attack by far. Hence, Bitcoin has the fastest settlement time, since each block compounds the hashrate needed to rewrite it. https://medium.com/@nic__carter/its-the-settlement-assurances-stupid-5dcd1c3f4e41 https://www.crypto51.app/

High power costs Feature of PoW, the only way to have trustless permissionless decentralized consensus. There is no "Proof" in PoS, "stake" is a software abstraction that gives some users more rights. Only by spending watts and doing verifiably hard work can we be sure the network stays strong against the attacks.

Limited governance Good, each human can be bought, coerced, kidnapped or killed. Less human intervention = stronger network.

Overall utility I assume you're talking about programmability and smart contracts. Added complexity = broader attack surface, as evidenced by hundreds of hacks and billions of stolen crypto assets over the years. Being a sovereign hard money is a multi-trillion dollar market niche, and multiple L2s can compliment the secure and robust base level of BTC for more flexibility if needed.

Do you know what will happen to miners when the blocks are finished being mined? Yes, either Bitcoin has enough transactions to sustain itself with the fees or it have failed. Guess we'll see in 20 years or so

SN quote: Feb. 14, 2010: I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be very large (bitcoin) transaction volume or no volume.

0 sats \ 74 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 22 Aug 2023

Ahhh, nothing like a lost maxi.

So about your "near-zero probability" that still takes 10+ minutes. We already beat it in all respects.

There is no positive to high power costs, especially with the greenhouse effect we are seeing in the climate, and with the rise in power costs both for living and for mining.

Limited governance leads to no active governance, that's like having a hundred dead presidents instead of a living one, congress and senate.

Overall utility - just a rofl on that one. Much of the stolen crypto you speak of is Bitcoin. You can't wiggle out of the fact that it doesn't do much and doesn't do it very well by pointing at other projects.

What happens when the blocks are done being mined: miners turn into trash in landfills. All miners will be processing are transactions (assuming there are any) and they won't make jack. Congestion in tx's would have to be insane for a miner to turn a profit.

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @DiracDelta 22 Aug 2023

@nemo I can't reply to your comment. @k00b apparent bug in ability to reply after some depth

You think I argue with idiots like this?

https://imgprxy.stacker.news/yZJe3J32PPBnZRz9pu2FABDgt_CaIN2ofQujliK2q78/rs:fit:600:500:0/g:no/aHR0cHM6Ly9tZWRpYS50ZW5vci5jb20vUGpiakhuaFE3SEVBQUFBQy92bGFkaW1pci1wdXRpbi1sYXVnaC5naWY

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 22 Aug 2023

Does clicking 'view replies' then replying there work?

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 22 Aug 2023

if you did you might get somewhere

instead you're a backup for a btc maxi in failed debate

cheers

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @DiracDelta 22 Aug 2023

Oh, you're very confused, I actually want you to remain steadfast in your beliefs, useless (idiot for the commie State) arrogant low tier normie who doesn't have anything better to do than somehow find their way here.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 22 Aug 2023

Calling me neurotypical is so fucking ironic I can't even... lmao

Sucks to suck, ya know?

Unfortunately, that is you today.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DiracDelta 22 Aug 2023

You think normie means neurotypical in this concept? Lol, it means sheep, you illiterate troglodytic troll, keep up with language

But yeah, if by neurotypical, you mean IQ falling well within a standard deviation, you certainly match that criteria too

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 27 Aug 2023 outlawed

stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @nemo 22 Aug 2023

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 22 Aug 2023

1 man backup sad af

0 sats \ 64 replies \ @Ed_Relight 22 Aug 2023

And here I thought you were genuinely interested, and not simply peddling your shitcoin. Who's "we"? BCH? 0.3% of current BTC hashrate is enough to 51% attack BCH and obliterate it. Too bad it's so insignificant it's not even profitable to do so. Energy and ecology scare? Educate yourself - https://www.mdpi.com/2078-1547/14/3/35 But you won't read it just as you didn't read my previous links, you'll just keep calling me closed-minded maxi, lmao.

Stolen Bitcoin - show one instance of stolen funds due to BTC protocol bug or exploit.

Ooohh, miners aren't making shit? Why is the hashrate almost always at ATH then?

0 sats \ 63 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 22 Aug 2023

What shitcoin do you think I am peddling? I don't hold BCH.

BitcoinCash is superior software, Bitcoin has the volume. It's a horrible business model to fix scaling and then correlate with your previously forked chain in mid-market price with a bad logo and low popularity.

I'm not into it. Lol.

Bitcoin can be stolen using conventional methods, the result can be the same or it can stay in circulation illegally in some countries.

The mining hashrate is at ATH due to excessive buildup of miners and mining products in the hopes for a bull market during an economic collapse. Greed equates to ignorance, let's just call it extreme ignorance.

In most instances it's cheaper to buy Bitcoin than to mine it. If you don't know that, you don't know jack.

0 sats \ 62 replies \ @nemo 22 Aug 2023

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0 sats \ 61 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 22 Aug 2023

BCH improved multiple features of Bitcoin while maintaining most of the original code.

First of all, it scales. Second, it's somewhat faster (although still slow AF in my opinion) in block times. BCH has active governance and while their SmartBCH chain is beta at best, they are progressive. It's been adopted by a lot of social media sites as a "cash" form of Bitcoin but that isn't my evaluation; it's still too slow at nearly 2x the speed of BTC and Bitcoin won't scale.

BCH could effectively do what people want BTC to do in the marketplace if they simply swapped the two. I see BCH as a failed marketing model because they are in competition with the correlation of the currency they forked from which doesn't scale, to fix scaling.

PoW in general is outdated. Work smarter, not harder.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Ed_Relight 22 Aug 2023

Ahh, eCash guy, gotcha. Wait till you learn that PoS doesn't work, that'd be something

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 22 Aug 2023

*Been using it without fail for years.

*Laughs loudly

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0 sats \ 58 replies \ @nemo 22 Aug 2023

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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 22 Aug 2023

not using excessive power to achieve the same or lesser than amount of encryption to provide a cryptocurrency that works and works well

if you think PoS doesn't work you're literally braindead

"Bitcoin maxi's are the flat earther's of crypto." -Allen Taylor

before you even start - I HATE Ethereum. I turned down a copywriter position with LUKSO and positions with EOS before that.

I am not promoting anything, simply making a point.

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0 sats \ 54 replies \ @nemo 22 Aug 2023

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @AllCatsAreEvil 21 Aug 2023

You forgot to mention the huge network effect.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @thomaswolf OP 21 Aug 2023

There is a lot to cover on this subject, lol.

It's pure insanity to me that people haven't figured out the basics behind this since 2009.