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350 sats \ 4 replies \ @yo2xncv0 22 Sep 2023 \ parent \ on: Why do you hold Bitcoin? bitcoin
Fiat currency is used more than Bitcoin IN THE REAL WORLD. Popularity means nothing.
Something being used more doesn't automatically make it more private. The constant pointing to anon set is a misnomer in Bitcoin because most users don't buy KYC free or use Bitcoin in a privacy preserving way.
-Most Freenet markets only accept Bitcoin because of sheer popularity. But even then they charge a fee if you pay with it. Usually 7-15%
-Just like above many ransoms give you a discount if you pay in Monero.
-Liquidity and first mover advantage
-The canary is Monero usage in adversarial environments where it matters. Not "soft" white markets. That comes later if it comes at all (any crypto that is allowed to flourish on white markets will 100% be regulated to a shadow of itself. If it doesn't bend the knee it will not be allowed there. Monero and Bitcoin will always be gray/black market money in the end.
-Is this even true? And almost all privacy oriented FOSS software, the crucial software they use, accept Monero payment or donations.
-Liquidity and first mover advantage
The claim that Bisq has no Monero volume is just completely incorrect. It is the #1 currency aside from Bitcoin on there. Even more than any fiat!:
https://imgprxy.stacker.news/S5gZQDcoxveLWHymR1f36Zph47h8cp1bS2eQ6bQmcTI/rs:fit:600:500:0/g:no/aHR0cHM6Ly9waWNzdXIub3JnL2kvZjBkYzBkOTUtMzk2ZC00ODllLTgyYTItMzljZDJjZGI1ZjY3LmpwZw
The trend on DNMs is clear. 2 year old data:
https://imgprxy.stacker.news/WKavgxZiVTBjFvRamhrIjldtde-NyRgKlZKzO8_ee4U/rs:fit:600:500:0/g:no/aHR0cHM6Ly9waWNzdXIub3JnL2kvOWJmMDExNzUtOGIxMy00MjU0LWJkNWQtNjc0MDZlYjkzNjA4LmpwZw
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Firstly, I'm active on Bisq as a coordinator. I know the volume and time constraints of trades.
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Secondly, fiat can't be used in darknet markets. Comparing the two is a false equivalence. But a data set is important to privacy, because a larger data set drives up the cost, and statistics. Looking at the cases of laundering by way of crypto, darknet busts, drugs, etc, the cases are quite difficult to prosecute, and have all required access to a physical device.
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Ransoms don't collect in Monero because of "popularity", which we'll define as volume in this case. You have any idea the difficulty of sourcing $20M Monero in a 72-hour period? It's impossible. Go take a look at the top 5 Monero DEX's by volume. You won't find anywhere close to that. If you tried doing this, you'd be the marginal buyer, driving up the price considerably on your own accumulation. This means you'd require a third party to contact CEX's that offer Monero for an OTC buy. This is why 99% of ransomware money is paid in BTC. There's too much FRICTION. The time constraint is dangerous for your OPSEC, especially when Tailored Access Operations literally has a well-staffed division that works on ransoms even if they're for $1000. Popularity does matter, just like it does in Forex markets dealing with currencies.
I'm not anti-Monero. I'm just separating the ideals and observing how its been put into praxis. I respect Monero.
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Why give me an argument by authority? It's unecessary and I can't verify who you are anyway. Just present your argument or data and that will stand on it's own.
Yes, but you were holding usage up as if that was the only metric that matters, but obviously it isn't which was my point of bringing up fiat.
Maybe I should have been clearer. By popularity I meant network effect, first mover advantage, liquidity, etc. But everything in your last paragraph makes sense.
Can I genuinely ask your opinion on something? Why do many DNMs discourage using Bitcoin and/or incentivize and recommend using Monero? You would think it would be the opposite based on volume/liquidity/network effect.
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Yes, didn't mean to make an authority argument, just that the volume of Monero is quite low.
And to answer your question yo2, I need to first say that the question is based on faulty information. Remember, Hydra got taken down last year, that was the biggest DNM in history, nothing comes even close. It accounted for some 95% of total DNM volume and about the same % for crypto laundering via cash-out services (Bitzlato was one of the largest launderers). Hydra was a bitcoin only DNM. After their takedown, a bunch of competitors sprang up to fill the void and fought each other, with doxxing, fake rumors and all kinds of shit last year. The largest today in order I would say by volume and listings are:
- Blackspurt: Bitcoin only
- OMG!OMG!: Bitcoin only
- Kraken: Bitcoin only
- Mega Market: Bitcoin, Monero, Tether
- Solaris: Bitcoin only (recently taken over by Kraken)
- MGM Grand: Bitcoin only
Altogether they probably account for 99% of DNM volume.
So when you say: "[M]any DNMs discourage using Bitcoin and/or incentivize and recommend using Monero?", I'm not sure what you mean. Perhaps some of the small ones do, but I'm unfamiliar with those.
Crypto cash-out services are different than mixers which have fallen from favor. Cash-out services are generally foreign exchanges located in Russia, N. Korea, etc. Most have physical locations (offices or drop-offs). English language DNMs all utilize mail services. Russian language DNMs use drop-off spots. This requires middle-men, but foreign exchange rates are favorable enough to negate it. The Russian Bitzlato dude was arrested in Miami last year, part of the Hydra fallout. Binance is likely under scrutiny by the DOJ for operating the same way for sanctioned customers. There's been a bunch of busts.
Most DNM operators and vendors don't use Monero in crypto laundering because the backend is a foreign exchange, and since they're already paying ~15%, they don't want to pay another 10% for a trade leg they don't need. As for DNM customers, they generally don't care, and most would use credit cards if they were allowed to. Bitcoin is the lowest common denominator for customers, vendors, and operators; it offers enough privacy, liquidity, and convenience to satisfy each. The privacy of bitcoin can be greatly enhanced with a little bit of effort, and at very reasonable cost, without losing its liquidity benefits.
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Thanks for response. Very interesting.
Not saying you are wrong, I could be wrong, but this is not my experience. The now defunct ASAP, Incognito, Archetype, Bohemia, etc are all I ever see on aggregation market websites. They are Bitcoin/Monero, incentivize using Monero, or are Monero only. But maybe that is because I'm in a sequestered bubble of English sites.
How did you get the volume data for all these markets you listed and where did you find them? What markets would you say are currently the top 3 by volume?
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