Here's some replies:
Halo22B says
Very few that have grasped the concept of self sovereign safe storage practices will go to a centralized promise of paper Bitcoin. I do think a moderate percentage of people who exclusively hold on exchange (for "safety" reasons) will sell and switch to an ETF product.
Disavowed_Rogue says
Buy both.
Frogolocalypse says
Only you can decide the best security solution for your bitcoin. Every person will have different use-cases, requirements, and goals.
Aww and who can bash that last one? Me. I can bash it. This is the equivalent of "Not financial advice, do your own research" Every site this person looks up is going to tell them that ETFs are safe.
Now, to be fair to r/bitcoin, most of the comments are saying no don't do it, but I still feel it hasn't been made clear enough why this is such a problem. I can already sense shouts crying "dogma" at the idea that an ETF isn't safe.
Here was my reply:
"This is the shit the happens when you celebrate ETFs, moon bois. People forget counter-party risk exists in ETFs and unironically think its safer than holding it yourself.
A single point to attack, a single point of failure for everyone's money, is easier than 1,000 points to attack.
Anaxander, the son of Eurycrates, when someone inquired why the Spartans did not amass money in the public treasury, said, 'So that those made the guardians of it may not become corrupt.'"
Good post. Voices like yours will be drowned out by the NGU crowd until the next bear market.
All shitcoins, only one comes from the largest asset manager in the world
The only benefit I could see is if your company allows it (and matches it) in your 401K, then you will get the "paper coin" contributed by your Boss. How that will unfold in the future, who knows? But it is possible one semi-benefit. Some people I know prefer to forgo the whole 401K and get that taxed cash biweekly and dump it (DCO style) into BTC in Your self-custody wallet. I would say much safer that way but YMMV.
Its really something isn't it? The government has financial incentives to keep you from holding your own money.
Surely I don't need to repeat this, but in case a lurker hasn't seen the argument before, what happens to those 401ks in the case of a fork? Do you own Bitcoin? Or are you left with Bitcoin Cash?
What would have happened if a Bitcoin ETF company took part in the NY Agreement?
Agree, that's why it is wise to stay away from them...
What are the incentives for an ETF to choose a less desirable fork? I can think of disincentives - lower value and therefore lower profits from the fees.
Legal compliance, for example anyway. Confidence as another example that because they're moving with other industry partners that it won't present a problem for them. Afterall, why would an exchange support a "less desirable" fork. Read up on the New York agreement man.
Good points.
This is the shit the happens when you celebrate ETFs, moon bois. People forget counter-party risk exists in ETFs and unironically think its safer than holding it yourself.
You sound like average IT nerd. I get it, your computer and coin is secure. For the average person taking self custody of their coin is more risky than having it at an established financial institution that already has trillions of USD and doesn't need to scam you.
You think people are stupid and don't understand risk, yet you're the one who doesn't seem to understand what it is for others.
No dude! This is a toxic and antithetical message you're spreading here. You are enabling the ETF as an attack vector by spreading this message. I understand that self custody can be overwhelming at first but it really is objectively easy to store your bitcoin safely. Spread that message! Practice self custody, teach self custody.
Why are you even here dealing with bitcoin at all? If you're here to protect your own wealth and pursue sovereignty using non-censorable, unconfiscatable, borderless money, are you not incentivized to take actions that strengthen that tool? Like encouraging decentralization through the spread of other sovereigns? If you are seeking freedom through bitcoin you are shooting yourself in the foot by doing anything BUT discouraging the use and proliferation of an ETF.
Oh fuck off, I don't need your permission to be here or to own bitcoin. You're as insufferable as a vegan. The fact that you think you can tell me and others what to do shows that you're an enemy of freedom.
Har har are you trolling or do you need some serious help learning how to self-custody right now?
570 sats \ 6 replies \ @ryu 1 Nov
Phoenix and ZEUS (from 0.8.0 onwards) are incredibly easy to use self-custody wallets with Lightning functionality (the latter has built-in Lightning and on-chain balances if you use their embedded node).
This fucker is being a contrarian just to be, or is actually this fucking stupid. Point and laugh either way.
Those are for spending money. I think the nature of the discussion was around secure savings vaults.
This is why I focus on things like Liana wallet rather than talking about lightning network wallets.
Lol, you think bitcoin on an OS that you don't control and that can be exploited is more secure than an ETF? Maybe you should stick to an ETF.
Or are you trying to make that the average person should run the own lightning node and connect to it from a mobile wallet? Like I said, you IT nerds are clueless about the real world.
An airgapped signing device is as simple as transferring files from a digital camera to a home computer.
This is a much better argument than simply insulting people who want to use ETFs, thanks.
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @ryu 1 Nov
I run CalyxOS, not stock. I use ZEUS's recently introduced embedded Lightning node (which is why I mention 0.8.0, and not older versions which act as node controllers) for full self-custody both on-chain, and on Lightning. And lastly, I only use an on-ramp (Spritz) for necessary bills I can't pay with native Bitcoin.
I never thought I'd say this two years, but have fun staying fucking poor. And learn to bait better.
Like I said, you IT nerds are clueless about the real world. "Install a custom OS on your phone - more secure than ETF". Hahahaha. Btw, bitcoin already made me rich, but thanks for playing.
Now, I know the trouble with quoting Satoshi. Bitcoin is ultimately a social construct. It is what we decide that it is, but if Bitcoin is not held by the people who use it, if it succumbs to the failings of gold, then it holds no purpose whatsoever. Traditional accounting systems for gold would do just fine.
However, it is actually the EASIEST thing in the entire world to hold for yourself and that is the hope we've put into it for success. Evidence counter to that is evidence counter to our hope for Bitcoin itself.
It IS easy though. Liana wallet for example encourages multi-sig with many devices. It's idea is that if you lose a key, you have a backup somewhere else.
We have companies dedicated to teaching people how to hold it themselves too: Liana, Unchained, and River all also have hand holding self-custody training.
Padawan Wallet is a testnet Bitcoin wallet designed to teach you how to use Bitcoin without risking any money.
While I will admit, that I wish for more tooling designed around this initial teaching phase, I counter myself by pointing out how much effort, how much focus is put on custodians rather than building out those tools. It seems everyone wants to hold onto your money for you. Everyone wants to tell you that its too hard and that you shouldn't bother to try. Only Bitcoiners who oftentimes lost money from counter-party risk themselves try to correct that problem.
"If You Don't Hold it, You Don't Own it" as the gold bugs say, but that's exactly the reason the gold bugs ran into trouble. Unlike Bitcoin, its too difficult to hold, verify against counterfeit, and exchange without a counter-party
this is a great reply. thank you. you have way more patience than me. I would have said something like -
lol remember to ask daddy's permission first before using the big grownup money
Sure, but here is a question that many will have to answer: What do you do with your pension plans your past employers have paid into and you can't withdraw from for another 10-30 years, because the goblerment says so?
Keep them in the S&P 500, because that's self-sovereign, censorship-resistant and has no counterparty risk, and Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon and Meta stonks are the epitome of freedom?
There are things that suck extraordinarily, and things that just suck. Some may prefer the latter.
What happens to those 401ks in the case of a fork? Do you own Bitcoin? Or are you left with Bitcoin Cash?
What would have happened if a Bitcoin ETF company took part in the NY Agreement?
Okay, additionally, you can actually talk to a lawyer about setting up a self directed IRA (where you set up a holding company that you run to hold your assets for you the customer) I know there are self directed IRA companies and I specifically don't mean those.
Also, unchained capital (while not ideal in my opinion) I've heard people gave them 1 key in a 2 of 3 multi-sig and that was good enough for a retirement account as well.
Now, I won't pretend like I understand the requirements to roll over one retirement plan into a different retirement account and all of those things, but of what I do know, there looks like a path that can be taken to avoid a lot of the risk that using an ETF instead would bring.
Bitcoin is for enemies, and people who do it wrong.
ETF is not about simplifying the holding of Bitcoin but allowing traditional money to gain exposure to Bitcoin. There is a lot of money out there that can't buy Bitcoin and that can't exit the "system". The problem is that you do not understand this.
8billion people are not going to hold their keys.
bitcoin ETF is a touch point for TradFi NgU.