Is PlebNet still a thing? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

2466 sats \ 9 comments \ @elvismercury 24 Nov 2023 bitcoin

Following a discussion about the importance of getting in front of the dust frontier, I want to stick a toe into getting my hands dirty messing around w/ the LN. I remember hearing about this great community called PlebNet that seems like just the thing.

However, following along in the getting started section of their wiki, one of the Telegram groups hasn't had any action in about two years; the other is unreachable; and the kycjelly account, which I take to be one of the main drivers of plebnet, hasn't tweeted since August.

Is this group still kicking? If not, is there some comparable one, where people chat, you can ask questions, get support, help others, etc?

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3406 sats \ 2 replies \ @nullcount 24 Nov 2023

Ask your questions right here on SN, lol

As for pleb nodes, DarthCoin has recently been popularizing the idea that plebs should not run routing nodes. Which I agree with.

Rather, plebs should run nodes with only unannounced channels, this is for privacy but also, a pleb with poor liquidity can actually cause net harm to "the network". As other nodes will attempt to use your channels for routes, but as a humble pleb, your channels are not actively managed and your public node causes other's payments to fail or timeout. Also, as a pleb, you want your node to work when you go to use it, but if you're not pricing your liquidity correctly, you may find that other nodes have used up your public liquidity causing your own payments to fail or become more expensive.

As for why PlebNet has mostly disappeared:

its become clear that LN really only works reliably and efficiently as a Hub and Spoke network. I.e. the incentive is to open a direct channel to hubs and leverage their excellent liquidity for your node.
The first 10k public nodes were mostly hobbyist trying to bootstrap network effects. This led to groups like plebnet.
But as the network evolved, it became obvious who to open channels with (i.e. open channels to the nodes you pay the most, or the nodes with the best liquidity) the appeal of a "network for plebs" wore off as soon as people realize that plebs have terrible liquidity.
with recent vulnerabilities, it is increasingly suggested to only open channels to nodes you trust not to steal from you. So soliciting channels from internet strangers is risky.
we now have liquidity markets like LN+, Pool, and Magma where you can lease /rent channels.
its not the best idea (for privacy) to link your node to your social media identity. PlebNet was often filled with post of people using their nym/name and posting channel open requests which linked their identity to their node. Which effectively allowed anyone to scope the UTXOs related to that node and make assumptions about this user's bitcoin stack. Which could be used with other information posted by this user to further deanonymize them.
All in all, groups like Plebnet got bloated with new members and became noisy and at the same time the need for such support groups has been outsourced to more scalable platforms.
Additionally, LN is always changing so wikis written about the subject 2 years ago are likely already obsolete and would require constant revisions which is not scalable.

Recognize LN is still early and the best information comes direct from the source (usually githubs of the projects themselves).

But the support network for LN keeps growing and places like SN and even Reddit are great for asking questions and getting help.

226 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury OP 24 Nov 2023

So much helpful context -- thank you!

I guess I could ask very particular questions on SN (would be an interesting use case) and maybe I will, once we have subs. I admit that I was attracted to the idea of a real-time chat where people were hanging out and there could be ambient information flow.

I had concluded the hub-and-spoke thing myself; it seemed inevitable, at least in the medium term. I wanted to learn how to do the full thing, even if I did a shitty job and lost money and crashed my node a bunch of times, just to really grok the fundamentals of how this all works together. I'm technical in general, but have no expertise in the guts of LN, so it seemed worthwhile.

Thanks again for the reply, it was really the perfect answer. Getting the full perspective with the right context can be a trick.

228 sats \ 0 replies \ @nullcount 24 Nov 2023

Still, there are lots of great and active groupchats on TG, Discord, Slack, RocketChat, nostr, and Matrix. They're just more fragmented and focused.

Have a look at all the tech you use for LN (nodes, web GUIs, tooling, etc.) Most of those tools will advertise chat servers where the devs hang out and answer questions. Join them and be active and you may get invited to some more private groups where the real alpha gets leaked.

270 sats \ 3 replies \ @OT 24 Nov 2023

There is a telegram group with 4k+ members. I have asked questions in there before, but its been a while.

Its pretty easy to get a lightning wallet on your phone. Phoenix or electrum are just a few clicks really.

You can always ask here if no one on plebnet is responding

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @elvismercury OP 24 Nov 2023

I have a mobile LN wallet, and an Alby wallet, and I can send payments and stuff. But I don't really know what I'm doing at a more technical level, which is what I'm trying to address here.

Is the Telegram group you're talking about that "PlebNet Library" one I linked, or is there another one?