John Carvalho and Liquid \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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John Carvalho and Liquid x.com/BitcoinErrorLog/status/1737481251991253385

8330 sats \ 47 comments \ @Rsync25 20 Dec 2023 bitcoin

1453 sats \ 5 replies \ @emmanuelrosa 20 Dec 2023

I was going say that using Liquid differs from using another altcoin (such as Bcash and Litecoin, as in the example) due to the enforced 1-to-1 peg between Liquid and Bitcoin. But when I typed 1-to-1 peg, I cringed realizing my mistake.

425 sats \ 4 replies \ @BlueSlime 20 Dec 2023

the internet is fraught with danger!

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @elysia 20 Dec 2023

What is pegging

64 sats \ 1 reply \ @Lost_dogz 20 Dec 2023

https://m.stacker.news/8890

57 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitByBit21 20 Dec 2023

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-30-2016/3pgxcx.gif

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @faithandcredit 21 Dec 2023

Something something stablecoin rug

1377 sats \ 5 replies \ @TheBTCManual 20 Dec 2023

For sure, points many have made already, and a few that people need to consider before getting into Liquid.

But to that, I often ask what is the solution for the average poor right now? Not saying it is better or worse, but we have to admit that none of the current solutions are great, it either custodial LN, an exchange account, or Liquid until you're rich enough or big enough to make sense to go on-chain

I don't consider liquid even a custody tool, more a consolidation layer, a temporary storage option

645 sats \ 2 replies \ @freetx 20 Dec 2023

current solutions

Yes, its a fair point: What are the alternatives?

As a counterpoint however, you still need to pay a mining fee to peg-in to Liquid....so at that point why not just swap into LN?

A valid reason might be needing to transact in larger amounts (>.5 btc) or you are specifically transacting with Liquid Federation members.....

692 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 20 Dec 2023

100% if you're moving into Liquid or LN from on-chain you meet the same on-chain cost so do you go custodial LN (trust 1 custodian/LSP), run your own LN channels (technical overhead, and stay online) or go Liquid which gives you a similar UX as on-chain for those who aren't ready to make the leap to dealing with a new ecosystem with invoices, address formats etc.

I think the use case is to buy L-BTC directly with fiat or stablecoins to build a stack or make payments and you could move to LN with that via a swap service and vice versa

Could even use Liquid as a secondary storage option for sats to rebalance a channel

Who knows? Liquid blocks are still pretty much a ghost town but relatively it has picked so people are clearly discovering it and using it for some reason they didn;t have before

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano 20 Dec 2023

The issue of the LN is inbound liquidity.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @bataroot 10 Jan

I don't consider liquid even a custody tool, more a consolidation layer, a temporary storage option

I really like this analogy. That is exactly the way I mostly use liquid. DCA into it, and then peg-out a consolidated UTXO at one point in the future.

I must say that I also used it to buy a gift card 2 weeks ago because the onchain fees didn't make sense at all for the multiple small onchain UTXOs I had on hand...

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 10 Jan

Its also a good option the other way, having large UTXOs are not great for privacy so spending into a peg in and having a bunch of transactions in liquid is a better option then trying to coinjoin all the damn time.

I think people who poopoo these tools will find out once you start using Bitcoin regularly its not so cut and dry and everyone needs to decide on what trade-off they prefer

1001 sats \ 0 replies \ @Ice9 20 Dec 2023

I agree on most points he makes, except it doesn't have a free floating exchange rate or some weird algorithm maintaining a peg. You also can't create more supply than there are willing temporary sellers of BTC.

Maybe it's only used as a way to keep future main chain fees in check? As soon as fees on main chain drop, Liquid loses its main benefit and people start transacting on main chain again.

But yeah, having a known federation of people in control doesn't sit well.

621 sats \ 5 replies \ @knorozov 20 Dec 2023

If you look at it like that, you can't scale bitcoin.

443 sats \ 4 replies \ @needcreations_ 20 Dec 2023

Lightning is bitcoin. Liquid is not bitcoin.

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @knorozov 20 Dec 2023

Lightning is a bit more bitcoin then Liquid.

120 sats \ 2 replies \ @rkfg 21 Dec 2023

Lightning is 100% Bitcoin, Liquid is 100% not. It's really easy to distinguish if you look who mines and verifies the transactions in both.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @freetx 21 Dec 2023

Liquid is 100% not

well..... there is no independent supply of L-BTC, there is no "mining" in Liquid. Its not like its a chain with some free floating supply of coins (ETH, etc). L-BTC is only created when BTC is "pegged in". The supply of L-BTC is therefore auditable and can be compared 1-for-1 against the BTC peg-ins

So in order for there to be anything on Liquid chain to transact, there must be L-BTC present. So as a chain it is wholly dependent on BTC peg-ins.

In that specific aspect it is very much like LN

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 4 Apr

Bingo

544 sats \ 0 replies \ @nicosey 20 Dec 2023

Its not wrong...

Remember this thing was invented to be a settlement layer between regulated exchanges.

425 sats \ 0 replies \ @spot 20 Dec 2023

So how is it going to scale Bitcoin in the long run? Is LN a fully approved solution?

361 sats \ 4 replies \ @Krv 20 Dec 2023

This is some kind of religious purism. The creators of Liquid aren't creating a new coin or a scaling solution. Liquid is a tool that enables actions using Bitcoin as the base value. It has trust tradeoffs in order to facilitate these tools.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @ibz 21 Dec 2023

It is most certainly a new coin. If their marketing department was clever enough to call it a "sidechain" that is a very different story.

110 sats \ 2 replies \ @031ef7d322 20 Dec 2023

Certainly seems like a new coin, otherwise you could use BTC directly instead of needing to peg in. How is it different from any other wrapped BTC token?

17 sats \ 1 reply \ @based 20 Dec 2023

A significant difference is the Liquid network doesn't use yet another token to enrich investors. Instead it uses L-BTC natively and which cannot be printed out of thin air.

https://help.blockstream.com/hc/en-us/articles/900001408623-How-does-Liquid-Bitcoin-L-BTC-work-

https://help.blockstream.com/hc/en-us/articles/900001386846-How-do-transaction-fees-on-Liquid-work-

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @031ef7d322 21 Dec 2023

Liquid network doesn’t use yet another token to enrich investors. Instead it uses L-BTC … <links to docs about transaction fees paid in L-BTC>

There’s no mining, only a trusted federation (aka Proof of Authority) that accepts transaction fees in the new token.

23 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 21 Dec 2023

When he's right he's right.

Fedimints are shitcoins too btw.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @pakovm 21 Dec 2023

Liquid: a custodian with built-in proof of reserves.

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @TonyGiorgio 20 Dec 2023

Completely agree.

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @Bitcoiner1 20 Dec 2023

Totally agree with him

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Ginepro_Co 21 Dec 2023

Twitter not available anymore :) does anyone have a screenshot?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @deletedd 21 Dec 2023

deleted by author

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 20 Dec 2023

I think we went through this the other day.

2 bear markets & still holding 1:1

IDK I feel pretty comfortable using it for small amounts. But welcome other solutions that have better tradeoffs in the future

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @BitByBit21 20 Dec 2023

Does Fedimint fix this? @benthecarman

110 sats \ 1 reply \ @benthecarman 20 Dec 2023

Liquid is useless, fedimint is not, so I guess

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @030a29f333 21 Dec 2023

"Useless" means no use. I am using Liquid. It has a use for me, for now, and it works well in the way I use it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 21 Dec 2023

It's the same picture.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nitter 20 Dec 2023

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425 sats \ 1 reply \ @Eobard 20 Dec 2023

deleted by author

4 sats \ 0 replies \ @Krv 20 Dec 2023

Except they don't maintain btc price

30 sats \ 4 replies \ @shyfire 20 Dec 2023

deleted by author

23 sats \ 2 replies \ @030a29f333 20 Dec 2023

At least the value of L-BTC is pegged to bitcoin. XMR token is a shitcoin

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @shyfire 21 Dec 2023

deleted by author

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @030a29f333 21 Dec 2023

Monero is the one shitcoins I give some respect to for its privacy features. It works for the people that want to use it, no hate from me on that front.