Taking the ETF temperature on Hacker News \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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Taking the ETF temperature on Hacker News news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38943291

8524 sats \ 45 comments \ @elvismercury 11 Jan bitcoin

An exercise I engage in from time to time is to read HN comments on a btc-related post to see what some really smart, tech-savvy, and ambitious people think about it. Spoiler: they overwhelmingly hate it, for assorted reasons. So then, in my mind, I see if I have rebuttals to their critiques.

This exercise has been useful, over time, although it wasn't useful this time. The critiques are overwhelmingly either a) ludicrous and uninformed, or b) reasonable but having some profound misunderstanding. It doesn't help that most of the btc advocates -- the few that there are -- also poorly understand bitcoin, and so their answers are almost always somewhere between unsatisfying and dumber than the critiques.

Except for this post (from an older discussion) which is brilliant.

Anyway, we are, as they say, still early. Somehow. Even after all this blood and toil.

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585 sats \ 0 replies \ @jgbtc 11 Jan

A lot of financial privilege needs to be checked.

1442 sats \ 14 replies \ @orthwyrm 11 Jan

The question of why so many people hate Bitcoin is one of the most fascinating things about this space.

1353 sats \ 8 replies \ @anon 11 Jan

It's because Hacker News is an algorithmic opinion amplifier.

The upvotes/downvotes/karmapoints you see are just the steering wheel on the shopping cart child seat. They don't do anything. Their only purpose is to calculate your opinion-similarity (based on upvoting/downvoting similar comments) to Sam Altman and a few of his buddies. Sort of like a Web of Trust, but with additional regression/ml passes thrown in. The actual story/comment ranking is based on the sum of similarity-to-SamAltman multiplied by upvote/downvote.

Basically the whole site is engineered as a gigantic system to recruit people who think like its originators, and get them to moderate the site for free, without ceding any influence to anybody who doesn't see things the way SamAltmanAndFriends do.

Sam Altman hates bitcoin. Therefore Hacker News hates bitcoin. It's really quite simple.

50 sats \ 5 replies \ @k00b 11 Jan

References? Genuinely curious about the algorithm, but tbh it sounds like you also might be extrapolating from your feelings which is cool too.

20 sats \ 3 replies \ @anon 11 Jan

References?

You're kidding, right?

That's like asking Stacker News to provide an API.

19 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 11 Jan freebie

That's like asking Stacker News to provide an API.

You can access the API from your browser using the GraphQL playground and your browser will automatically set the session cookies since it's the same domain.

But for external usage (like from Python), you would need to copy the cookies yourself. We don't have something like API keys yet.

But we do have an public API you can use and you don't have to reverse engineer it since we enabled introspection. But you probably meant that we should provide API keys.

If so, PRs welcome :)

19 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 11 Jan

That needs a web browser, therefore it isn't an API.

19 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 11 Jan freebie

Please tell me what your definition of an API is then.

Afaict, you're talking about API keys, not an API.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 1 Jul

Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI and founder of Worldcoin, has expressed excitement about Bitcoin, calling it a "super logical and important step on the tech tree"[5]. He believes that Bitcoin, as a global currency outside government control, can help reduce corruption by enabling transparent financial flows[5].

Altman has been a long-time supporter of Bitcoin. In a blog post from 10 years ago, he argued that a world transacting in Bitcoin would be more transparent and reduce corruption[5].

However, Altman and podcast host Joe Rogan are "very worried" about central bank digital currencies (CBDCs) and believe they could give governments more control over people's spending and lead to a surveillance state[5].

Altman is disappointed with how the U.S. government has recently treated the cryptocurrency industry, describing it as a "war on crypto" that aims to control the technology[5].

Sources [1] employee retention. A reasonably common failure mode for startups ... https://blog.samaltman.com/?page=10 [2] Worldcoin, Sam Altman's Crypto Project, Is Building a Layer-2 Chain https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2024/04/17/worldcoin-sam-altmans-crypto-project-is-building-a-layer-2-chain/ [3] Worldcoin, Sam Altman's eye-scanning crypto project, announces its ... https://fortune.com/crypto/2024/04/17/sam-altman-worldcoin-blockchain-world-chain/ [4] OpenAI CEO promotes crypto project Worldcoin after fundraising ... https://www.reuters.com/technology/openai-ceo-promotes-crypto-project-worldcoin-after-fundraising-report-2023-12-15/ [5] Bitcoin is a 'super logical' step on the tech tree — OpenAI CEO https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-openai-ceo-sam-altman-joe-rogan-excited

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury OP 11 Jan

Where is this coming from?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 11 Jan

I have no idea why Sam Altman hates bitcoin so much. Your guess is as good as mine.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 11 Jan

Even Blackrock agrees.

50 sats \ 3 replies \ @badabing 11 Jan

Subconsiously they understand it and feel their purchasing power slipping away? Maybe it's a form of self hate lol.

1683 sats \ 1 reply \ @orthwyrm 11 Jan freebie

I don't know. It's certainly true that people can be stubborn and refuse to update their worldview in the face of overwhelming evidence, but I suspect it runs much deeper than that.

Some people are simply wary of disruptions to the status quo. Others find comfort in living under the thumb of the state. And then you have a small cohort of bitter goblins who thrive on resentment, as we see in the dark caves of r/buttcoin. Yet still, the hostility continues to baffle me.

Who knows? We're witnessing a fascinating psychological experiment unfold here. One of my favorite things about Bitcoin is that it has a tendency to make people I agree with rich, and people who I disagree with poor. Let the coping and seething continue, because it's only going to get more hilarious as time goes on.

1054 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 11 Jan

My take is that a decent amount of the variance is based on the dissonance from a web of connected beliefs. If you think of your belief in btc as a tower, where the tallest block (btc) is set on top of many other blocks, what are those blocks? Many of them take a long time to acquire. Sometimes one block has a weird shape and prevents other important blocks from stacking on top of it. (@k00b and I had a far-ranging discussion on this someplace, but I can't dig it up atm sadly.)

Anyway, this metaphor isn't exactly right, but if there was ever an illustration of how much of the iceberg lies below the surface of the water, it's with btc. Which suggests that it's going to be a long time before I stop saying how early we are. Maybe I'll be dead first.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @IanMalcolmPhd 11 Jan

I think it's because they are brainwashed by the fud and the idiot box (aka tv)

712 sats \ 5 replies \ @gd 11 Jan

HN is full of the dumbest smart people in the world. It’s always frustrated me

4085 sats \ 4 replies \ @freetx2 11 Jan

Watching HN completely miss Bitcoin has been a fairly interesting experience over the last 12 or so years.

In part I think their anger is related to the collapsing returns within tech industry itself. "Silicon Valley Life" was the former gold rush that is now sunsetting....the industry has metastasized into a handful of kingdoms and growth is falling into traditional late-stage growth curves.

They should have seen it coming - and they know that. The internet developing its own native currency that displaces traditional system was an obvious tech development, but somehow they missed it.

But there is another - deeper change - that has happen. The "tech industry" itself has moved from being a very libertarian place in late 80s / 90s - to now a deeply state worshiping place. Its quite ironic (and they seem completely blind to it) that 99% of the tech they worship, was developed out of a mistrust of central authorities.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @cleaningup12 12 Jan

Saw this on nostr, boosted it and zapped here and there

Good piece 👏 well written

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @gd 11 Jan

Couldn't put it better myself

1097 sats \ 1 reply \ @IanMalcolmPhd 11 Jan freebie

Just beware of falling into the same group think here 👍

Every idea is a potential flip of the coin. Perhaps we reach a more ideal, higher truth with Bitcoin. Maybe.

243 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 11 Jan

This is so true. As has been discussed before, people's instinct is not naturally toward truth-seeking. Everyone has precious beliefs they hold for all the tribal and affiliative reasons and which they don't put to the test or dig into because there's too much bound up in it.

Bitcoiners are no different as far as I can tell. It will be the downfall of many in the space just as it has been for those outside it.

456 sats \ 0 replies \ @legxxi 11 Jan

Trying to convert people is like screaming at a tree asking for the fruits to be ripe right away.

Those who are ready will see.

217 sats \ 4 replies \ @jtwoodhouse 11 Jan

They'll dunk on bitcoin as ancient tech that survived its usefulness, and they'll be back to worshipping Emacs tomorrow.

52 sats \ 0 replies \ @031ef7d322 11 Jan

Are they dunking via the 50 year-old Internet Protocol?

294 sats \ 2 replies \ @brandonsbytes 11 Jan

deleted by author

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 11 Jan

Haha. That would be so great.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @IanMalcolmPhd 11 Jan

Only if there's vc money on the table

151 sats \ 2 replies \ @SimpleStacker 11 Jan

Just coz you're in tech doesn't make you smart in fields outside of tech, and Bitcoin is not primarily solving a technological problem but rather a social and political one. Combine that with bitcoins association with libertarianism, which in America is coded right wing while the vast majority of tech workers are brainwashed lefties, it's easy to see why tech bros hate it. On the other hand, it does mean that we are still early

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @ssaurel 11 Jan

Bitcoin is not primarily solving a technological problem but rather a social and political one.

100% agree.

This is also why Sh*tcoins claiming to be technologically superior to Bitcoin have no interest.

The superiority of Bitcoin lies in its monetary attributes. Its technology only serves to bring to life Bitcoin superior monetary attributes that make it a unique monetary revolution serving the people.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 11 Jan

Just coz you're in tech doesn't make you smart in fields outside of tech

True. Also true for every field besides tech. Which is a bit of humility most bitcoiners would do well to keep in mind, too.

1096 sats \ 1 reply \ @IanMalcolmPhd 11 Jan

This is why SN is here.

This guy said Bitcoin will fail in 2010 on hn, but later bought some.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=600813

Https://twitter.com/jdoliner

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 11 Jan

I love it. I was much later in becoming aware of btc at all, but that journey is equivalent to my own. Kudos to that guy for owning it.

A 2017-ish elvismercury would have written a lot of smart and also incorrect dismissive things.

111 sats \ 0 replies \ @libertad2cero 11 Jan

https://m.stacker.news/11752

44 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 11 Jan

I still wonder what HN users think about @hn if they knew (I assume they don't). Would they be surprised to see how much @hn stacked simply by posting HN stories here? Would they feel robbed? Would they start to get interested?

But well, the offer still stands that HN OPs can claim the sats that @hn stacked on their behalf.

379 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 11 Jan

I think they'd be indifferent -- the amounts are so small; and the hn bot only comes in pretty late in the game. If they cared, they have ample opportunity to post their own stuff here.

12 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 11 Jan

This mirrors my experience working in tech and talking with colleagues. Smart people but misinformed or under informed

12 sats \ 0 replies \ @9 11 Jan

It’s warmer than it used to be.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @guts 11 Jan

HN is on Eternal September, it used to be real developers talk and even PG used to be regular poster.

Now are narcissist pseudo marketers speaking tech news.

484 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury OP 11 Jan

Strong disagree.

Posts like mine, here, often kick off an avalanche of HN hate, but there is no site on the internet that is more full of high-signal commentary, where I reliably learn as much, as HN. It's not close. I can't remember what it was like ten years ago, but it's been great for the last bunch of years and it's still great.

They have a weird blind spot about btc, sure. But the overall excellence is why I throw myself into their btc-blindness over and over to see if there's something I'm missing. I really don't think there is, but, as Feynman said, I'm the easiest person to fool.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 11 Jan

To each their own on high signal, HN is more Tech News than it was Hacker News.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @godlikeXi 11 Jan

Sell off. Huge dump. Very early and bitcoin is still very very young.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fabs 11 Jan

HN Sounds like the place I'll do my damnest to avoid.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @piecover 11 Jan

You get/understand #Bitcoin at the price you deserve

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @crypnadeesha 11 Jan outlawed

stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.