42 sats \ 54 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 13 Feb \ on: ABORTION and GUNS poll culture
Can I be pro choice and pro gun but anti moron?
you don't need a gun, but there's no reason to ban them completely.
What you really don't need is military grade equipment. They're not toys and they're not collectors items.
The lack of respect I see people have with a weapon is astounding... Never point the barrel at anything you're unwilling to kill.
Civilians don't need military grade weaponry.
Pistols and hunting rifles/shotguns sure, those are sporting goods, but you can't convince me that the majority of military grade weapons owners have ever had the rigorous and thorough training required to adequately handle that weapon.
reply
Those people required help long before they began shooting up people.
When trained personnel who's primary mission has always been to protect go on shootings like that. I'm sorry but the here the state has let them down. Their service is probably what has left them with those difficulties and the state discarded them. They should have had the proper care for the very real demons they were fighting long before they ever got to the point of shooting up schools.
For me that's not about gun control that's about the state you sacrificed for abandoning you and you deserved better from them. They let those people down and some of the blame falls at their feet. But sure you could also say less access less likely to occur.
But let's use the UK as an example, guns (outside of sporting) are illegal to own to carry to whatever... And yet although very rare, shootings do happen, but are so rare because access to guns is difficult. And the shootings are done by sporting pistols/rifles/shotguns. So I'd argue that because those shooters didn't have access to military grade equipment the death toll was much much lower than it could have been.
Stabbings however, more or less the same as the US. People are going to break and do these things but the impact is lessened (from a quantity of lives lost perspective) when the access to higher capability weaponry isn't there.
reply
Military grade guns can help during a riot, if a mob tries to burn down your home or business or both
reply
I addressed this point slightly in another reply further up but to summarise. I'd have to say that if you require military grade guns to keep yourself safe, you are in over your head and need to reassess if it's a good idea for you to be where that kinda if heat is.
I'm going to go out on a limb here a little and suggest that you don't have the necessary training to combat that situation and for your own safety you'd be much better off finding somewhere else to be rather than engaging in that situation. From a purely survivability point of view.
I would like to provide context. I have had extensive training/experience for those types of combat situations and I can promise you... I'd rather find myself in a different situation every time.
You inferred in a previous reply that you were pro life. So I'd ask are you're truly willing to take another person's life to protect material possessions (which are likely insured) in riot scenarios like a business?
Coming for your home, slightly different you can bet id be putting down surpressive fire whilst I got my family out. But I'm not defending a building. It's not (to me) worth the risk to my life that even with the protection of a weapon that someone else doesn't start shooting back and gets me.
reply
"Coming for your home, slightly different you can bet id be putting down surpressive fire whilst I got my family out. But I'm not defending a building. "
You would leave a highly defensible position, exposing yourself and your family to who knows? Don't know your MOS but hopefully it was non-combat.
reply
That wasn't explained particularly well. I'm not leaving a defensible position I'm withdrawing to a safer one. The context above from the original poster talked about burning down your home. I'm not staying in a building on fire. I'm exiting and withdrawing to a safer one. The inference was that violent people were in your home already. That's not defensible with your family there, your not acting correctly you're worried about them. if it's burning or they're in it, then it's not defensible it's compromised. All you're doing is backing yourself into a corner. Get out and get somewhere else that's safe. This notion that one person can defend their home from 5,6,10,20 violent rioters/looters or other armed people is Hollywood fantasy. Be smart and actually keep yourself and your dependants alive.
Don't know your MOS but hopefully it was non-combat.
So far the tone of this whole thread has been decent and respectful, don't change that. Your inference that because you disagree makes me incompetent at my job didn't go unnoticed and was not appreciated.
reply
I don’t have material training.
A business is livelihood not just material things.
Yes I would shoot rioters and looters.
reply
Then I'd propose that you're not pro life, if you're willing to take theirs or lose yours over something covered by insurance.
But don't get me wrong or feel as though I am undermining the importance of that business to you, I am just suggesting that in a riot scenario the threat to your life (in my view) takes priority over the threat to your business. Businesses can be rebuilt, you can't be. Should you find yourself in that situation, I hope you come out ok. And I am sorry you have to live in an environment where those situations are not just theoretical debate but real expected situations.
What I am saying is sort of about what I feel is worth dying for. That building, will be taken over by another business owner and it'll last, it'll see new days, you may not. Prioritise you as best you can. (I'm not advocating for not defending your livelihood, I'm ex military, I know what it means to want to defend your way of life.)
reply
Once a sufficient level of violence or violent intent has been shown, I am not leaving the decision to them on whether I live or die. The fact is, if you have an armed response, you are MUCH more likely to survive a violent encounter.
reply
I agree, on the the principle. You can attempt to de escalate. Or you can hope that you're more capable than they are. As someone with training, (as I mentioned earlier) I can guarantee you I have been taught to disarm an opponent and make their weapon mine. Do you want to run the risk that your aggressor can't do the same thing to you?
I'm with you on the them or me stance. It's going to be them everytime. But if you try to de escalate and become less of a threat, you are more likely to survive than if you gambled on if you could shoot first. You also stand a shot as you try to de escalate for them to get comfortable, theyll come in close and you now have your shot to strike and disarm.
If you're in a stand off. They're not going to shoot you, they'd have already done so. De escalate and you stand to make them believe they're in control and you're not a threat whilst what you've done is taken full control of the situation. If they were going to shoot they'd have shot the moment they saw you had a weapon. Be unthreatening and you live long enough to actually come out on top.
reply
I guess you misinterpreted my meaning, I was not advocating for drawing from the drop (though there are situations where that might be the only choice).
Yes, if there is already a gun drawn on you, feign compliance and hopefully disarm or draw and shoot as appropriate.
Its always good to de-escalate social situations, but if a gun is in play, that is my red line where action is required. That is when a person has shown that they don't care if you live or die.
reply
I'm with you here, but I think it's key to be able to assess whether the holder of that gun is really a threat. Sure take control but putting them down because they have a gun, is a very swift escalation of events, you've not given any chance at all for them to volunterily put their gun down. Stay focused and any advancement from them sure. Do what you have to, but there are clear rules of engagement, those should apply in civvie street too.
Imagine you are a small business owner who has lost his business due to arson and riot.
How do you pay the bills while your business is being rebuilt?
Better to deter rioters than rebuild.
Better to defend your property than watch it burn down
reply
Don't get me wrong. I do understand. Replace business with job or any livelihood and I've been there. After leaving the military, I found myself entirely out on my ass. But I did rebuild. Granted I didn't have bills to pay, not really and I was able to sleep on friends sofas for a while. So I was fortunate I had support to allow me to rebuild.
There are other deterrents for rioters than the threat of getting shot and ones that don't put you in a position to also get shot.
Yes those can be expensive, but from my viewpoint, can you really put a price on your life? Because that's what could happen. You could start shooting at the wrong bunch of rioters and find yourself in a situation you really didn't need to be in.
But I do sympathise with where you're coming from about the practicalities of survival whilst that business gets rebuilt and those insurance thieves actually pay you your money.
reply
Regarding the price of my life I know it’s not infinite.
Most economists value life at around 10 to 20 million usd.
reply
So to further pull on that line of thinking, Are you pro life? If the cost of that life exceeds the price tag estimated between 10-20mil? Is it now too high a price to pay, or if that life somehow comes in under that valuation, is it somehow lesser?
See to me, the price of my life is infinite I'm not willing to lose it over anything really. I can't protect my family the next time they need protecting if I died the first time.
To refer back to your comment about a deterrent, I'm not anti gun at all, I'm anti civilians with unnecessary firepower.
If you are looking for deterrent, a single shot should be enough to deter people, and if it's not, you're already in over your head. So why not a standard 9mm pistol? One single shot is enough to make people scatter, that's a deterrent. Military grade weaponry isn't a deterrent that's intent. That weapon is designed for one thing only, you own that weapon and have intent to use it then you absolutely 100% have premeditated intent to kill. A pistol isn't designed to kill. Infact 9mm is designed to stop not kill. 5.56 rounds are designed to fragment and cause maximum damage, they're designed to maim and to kill. That's not reasonable or proportional force when it comes to deterring looters.