NVK v SeedSigner - Valid Concerns or Arrogants Attacks \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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NVK v SeedSigner - Valid Concerns or Arrogants Attacks

14.3k sats \ 67 comments \ @kepford 3 Apr bitcoin

There are few things I find more disappointing in bitcoin than people tearing down other projects without good cause. This is the feeling I get from the on-going sniping coming from NVK (ColdCard) in his comments about the SeedSigner project. What makes it frustrating is that NVK has some valid points, but instead of talking about trade-offs he makes very absolutist statements with little factual background. But, of course these are his personal opinions but I think it is not helpful to new comers and for sure not for the bitcoin community of open source projects.

ColdCard and SeedSigner have a lot in common when it comes to functionality as well as potential markets. The key difference is that SeedSigner's value is that one can build it from off the shelf parts at a low cost. You don't have to import it from another country and be subjected to your purchase being flagged or shipment being stopped by state actors. The second difference is that the software is completely free and open source. CordCard is source available but not open source. ColdCard's hardware is proprietary. I have no problem with either of these decisions by the ColdCard team but the trade-offs are not mentioned when people are tearing down SeedSigner.

List of NVK's issues with SeedSigner that I've heard. Please add more if I've missed some.

Evil Maid Attack
Radio security issues
Qualcomm chipset / General purpose computer for signing device

The evil maid attack seems like a straw man argument. I could be missing something and if I am please enlighten me. With any signing device you must protect your seed phrase. Radio issues I've seen mentioned recently would require physical access and seem pretty far fetched. They would require doing set up and then surveillance of the user. Seems like with these requirements any signing device would be vulnerable. The Qualcomm chipset concerns also seem silly. The whole point of the SeedSigner is to have a air-gapped machine. I find it highly unlikely that Qualcomm can monitor a device that never touches the Internet.

It bugs me that the head of one of the most popular bitcoin hardware companies is hammering a volunteer lead open source project. Its not a good look. Critism is good but this seems to go beyond that to me. My take thus far is that both of these devices and approaches have their place and the best way to address risks in both projects is to be honest with the security/convenience trade-offs. What do you think?

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4 replies \ @kepford OP 3 Apr

If you agree with me that SeedSigner shouldn't be smeared like this maybe the best response would be to support the project

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 3 Apr

Donating all sats from this post to SeedSigner. Well I already donated more than that today but if this post generates more stats I'll send them on to SeedSigner.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 4 Apr

You post is very one sided and leading, you should be ashamed.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 4 Apr

OK.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @GregAsks 4 Apr freebie

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1210 sats \ 2 replies \ @Praveen22 4 Apr freebie

The seedsigner is a fun project, but the tradeoffs never made any sense to me. If you're going to store real money use a real hardware wallet.

Yes let me just bust out my plain 24 words in a easily readable QR code every time I want to use my wallet. That's stupid. Its not strawman, its much easier to protect your seedwords when you don't need to access them frequently. When its an actual backup and not a necessary part for usage.

And to be fair to NVK seedsigner fans attacked ColdCard first.

111 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 4 Apr

I have to agree with this, Raspberry Pi is being misrepresented as some FOSS solution when it's not. The SeedSigner fans are rabid and dumb.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 4 Apr

Hadn't heard that about SS fans. Now fans of both sides are posting lame tweets. Short form social media really brings out the low IQ second handers.

416 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby 3 Apr

I agree with you 100%.

ColdCard and SeedSigner are both pretty cool products.

I have also been a little turned off by nvk's fudding seedsigner and other non-hardware-wallet solutions.

Airgapping is hard and computer security in general is full of pitfalls for amateurs (and experts) but I don't think this attitude of "leave it to the experts because you are too dumb" really helps the situation.

68 sats \ 0 replies \ @030a29f333 3 Apr

Ultimately it's about tradeoffs, as is basically everything else in Bitcoin and life in general. There's no perfect way to secure your sats, only a set of strengths and weaknesses in each method of doing so. Comes down to the user to figure out what they're most comfortable with.

115 sats \ 2 replies \ @Wumbo 3 Apr

I thought Cold Card firmware was open source

https://github.com/Coldcard/firmware

Maybe it just the compiled code. I will have to take a look.

64 sats \ 1 reply \ @chairman_pretense 3 Apr

It's "source available", but they don't accept outside contributors or allow forks which massively impacts the ability to have many dev eyes on the code.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 4 Apr

It doesn't, it's always been few contributors. SQLight has only 3.

The eyes are on source AVAILABLE...

216 sats \ 0 replies \ @chairman_pretense 3 Apr freebie

NVKs position basically comes down to a belief that the only way to safely use an open source, distributed project is with his commercial proprietary product.

To me that's an intellectual dead end and if it were true is massive failure for Bitcoin.

Importantly, but anecdotally, I've heard many more stories of users getting rekt using commercial hardware wallers than with seedsigner. Coldcards old dice roll UX caused a whole bunch of noobs to lose funds. But he would rather talk about esoteric nation state level attacks.

285 sats \ 2 replies \ @aljaz 3 Apr

This is just the last target of NVKs mental issues, there is a long standing pattern of bad behaviour, misleading statements, outright lies and half truths that only serve to stroke his own ego (and promote CC)

Ignore and forget as that is the easiest way to deal with people like him.

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @jp305 4 Apr

Has he opened up about it or you are just making this up?

138 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 3 Apr

I feel for the maintainers of SeedSigner. There are many foolish bitcoiners attacking them with very little logic. They seem to be mindlessly repeating talking points.

I agree with you though. That is the only way to really deal with it. But NVK does have a wide reach and I suspect he is negatively affecting the people working on SeedSigner and discouraging people from trying it that might benefit from it.

64 sats \ 0 replies \ @notgeld 3 Apr

NVKs products cost people money and he doesn't care even explicitly tells this is by design. Just avoid using Coinkite products. There are plenty of others for any threat model.

1052 sats \ 2 replies \ @030a29f333 3 Apr

I've always found this weird. Lot of people I respect and trust in the Bitcoin space recommend the ColdCard and then I see NVK acting like this. Feels weird.

243 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 3 Apr

It is weird and its not weird. Many people know him personally and my guess is that he just likes trolling and being toxic online. I have been around people like NVK for many years. Its not uncommon in smart technical people to behave like this. Its counter productive though. I expect that NVK is a nice guy if you get to know him. Bitcoin has a taste for toxic behavior online especially. It shouldn't be surprising. I don't mind people being opinionated and sharing that but I don't think it is helpful when we point the guns at our allies.

51 sats \ 0 replies \ @030a29f333 3 Apr

Certainly, I just listened to like 7 hours worth of NVK podcast material over the last 2 weeks. He's very obviously a smart guy who cares about us winning and I value his opinion a lot. Your point about point guns at allies is the main issue for me. I'm all for keeping people honest and aware of what's going on, just not a fan of the hostility towards a project who I've never heard bad things about outside of him 🤷‍♂️

55 sats \ 1 reply \ @TNStacker 1 Sep

A few months ago I won a Seedsigner and BTClock on Twitter and posted about it. NVK attacked me personally and pretty viciously. So, no matter how good his product may be, I don't do business with people who act like that. He might leave public-facing comms to others.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 1 Sep

That's disappointing. I know what you mean. I really wish many in the space would grow up and stop acting like college age jocks with massive egos.

129 sats \ 22 replies \ @elvismercury 3 Apr

The evil maid attack seems like a straw man argument.

Evil maid finds your QR code stuffed in a book, you are sunk. Evil maid finds your Coldcard, you're fine, unless she also knows your pin, which will brick the device after some smallish number of tries.

There may be ways to do something akin to having a QR code that is the base address, and the 'real' address requires an additional pass phrase that's not stored with the QR code. Someone can advise on that I'm sure.

100 sats \ 3 replies \ @CruncherDefi 4 Apr

Evil maid finds your Coldcard, you're fine, unless she also knows your pin

Or unless she is extremely sophisticated attacker with expensive and bleeding edge forensic equipment.

All hardware wallets are in the end security-by-obscurity solutions. I'll admit that level of obscuration is very high, but it's still security-by-obscurity.

Seed Signer is signer-only device. Decoupling signing and key storage is different paradigm. Having different options is good, so shitting on Seed Signer is at best a not responsible thing to do.

33 sats \ 2 replies \ @elvismercury 4 Apr freebie

All hardware wallets are in the end security-by-obscurity solutions. I'll admit that level of obscuration is very high, but it's still security-by-obscurity.

I don't agree with this -- the design of secure enclaves is not about obscurity, it's about designing to make certain threat models really hard to exploit. Obscurity may be in play in other aspects of hw wallet design, but it's not the only element in play.

Seed Signer is signer-only device. Decoupling signing and key storage is different paradigm. Having different options is good, so shitting on Seed Signer is at best a not responsible thing to do.

Agree that it's a different paradigm, and agree that shitting on SS is dumb.

Also believe that shitting on CC is dumb, which is why I keep tilting at these windmills.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @CruncherDefi 4 Apr freebie

I will expand on my reply.

Imagine we have some crazy sci-fi 3d scanners/printers that can clone atom-by-atom an object.

If you could clone a hardware wallet 1000 times you could brute-force all pins easy peasy.

Once we established that futuristic crazy sci-fi technology breaks pin-based HW the question is how far away we are from that future costwise/technologywise. And it's something we also need to consider if we want to put HW in a cold-storage for 50 years.

160 sats \ 17 replies \ @kepford OP 3 Apr

Ok, this is why I said straw man argument. If you have your keys in any form. Words, QR, whatever in a place that is not secure then you are screwed by the evil maid. It has nothing to do with SeedSigner or ColdCard.

One could make the reverse argument. If you find someone's ColdCard you have their key you just need their pin. You find a SeedSigner you have nothing but a signing device. No keys are stored unless you choose to do that.

Everyone should be using passphrases anyway and they should not be stored with your keys or if you device has you keys it shouldn't be with the device. I do not like having any device that stores my keys. But that's a tradeoff. ColdCard's security model has benefits for sure but the maid attack doesn't seem like a SeedSigner issue to me.

Am I missing something? I have no dog in this hunt. I mostly want to make sure I'm not missing something.

141 sats \ 7 replies \ @elvismercury 4 Apr

Ok, this is why I said straw man argument. If you have your keys in any form. Words, QR, whatever in a place that is not secure then you are screwed by the evil maid. It has nothing to do with SeedSigner or ColdCard.

I have no dog in the fight either, but I don't think this is a straw man. The basic way to use both devices creates a certain attack surface. With SS, you have a QR code on paper. Now you have the problem of safely storing that piece of paper where if someone gets their eyeballs on it even for a second, your funds are swept. It's not impossible to mitigate, but you have to mitigate it.

For CC, it's different. Possession of the device is not a big deal unless you're an attacker with stagger sophistication, which is a different use case than an Evil Maid.

Am I missing something? I have no dog in this hunt. I mostly want to make sure I'm not missing something.

Maybe you're not missing anything. The above is the main point of contention, as far as I'm concerned -- in either case you have to secure something, and the nature of how you have to secure it is pretty different. People may prefer one or the other tradeoff based on context.

10 sats \ 6 replies \ @kepford OP 4 Apr

You are not required to have a QR on paper. You do need to enter your seed. Could be in steel as seed words.

34 sats \ 5 replies \ @elvismercury 4 Apr

Point is there is a secret that you need to load into the SS somehow each time you want to use it. Unless you have taken additional precaution like with a passphrase, that thing is a bearer instrument that must be secured separately from the SS hardware and is subject to physical possession by Evil Maids.

27 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford OP 4 Apr freebie

This is why you should use the pass phrase. If I understand the CC you have to have a passcode to unlock it. And the CC stores your seed. So that is different but as long as you do not have your SS pass phrase and seed in the same location it seems like a marginal difference to me. It is different though. You need to trust the CC. All one needs is the passcode then, right?

33 sats \ 2 replies \ @elvismercury 4 Apr

The "front door" of the CC is gated by a pin, which can be arbitrarily long, I think; and since it can't really be brute-forced (the CC will brick after a smallish number of attempts) it's effective at normal Evil Maid prevention, though perhaps not vs "state-level Evil Maids" as another poster mentioned.

The passphrase is a different thing, which provides an additional level of security / multiplicity of your seed phrase. But for CC, you need to have got through the "outer moat" before passphrases become relevant. Also, passphrases are a general BIP standard, so they can be used anywhere -- I assume SS implements that, too.

You're right, though, these differences become quite small, especially when you get into the weeds and start layering different things on top of each other. I think you could be quite safe w/ either tool, but the manner of your safety would be slightly different.

27 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 4 Apr

I don't own a CC so I wasn't sure if it was a pin or just an implementation of BIP-39.

It sounds like to me that the ColdCard maybe makes it harder to do some dumb things. Personally I don't like the idea of the device itself storing the seed (between boots) because then its just the pin someone has to know. This stuff is hard and there are so many different considerations.

I think using the different devices might make one consider their strengths with different weights of importance. It is a very valid consideration to have to have the seed phrase and device together in order to spend funds. But, if someone has your seed phrase its game over. They don't need the SS at all. The device isn't the issue unless it is running.

Based on what I've read and what others have said CC manages the risk of someone stealing the device well though so that may be a better security model. I'm still thinking about it. I've used ledger devices (don't trust their software now) and they seem to use a similar model. The seed is stored in the device. I don't like having to trust the device's security. Its very nuanced.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 4 Apr

I kinda want to buy a CC to play with

108 sats \ 7 replies \ @_vnprc 3 Apr

The only credible criticism I have seen of the seedsigner model is that it requires you to access unencrypted private key material for each spend. Fair point. You can encrypt the private key using a BIP39 passphrase. I don't like this solution because, as Lopp points out, this changes your setup from a single point of failure to two points of failure. If you lose the seed phrase (or QR code) you lose your money. If you lose the passphrase you lose your money. Far more people get rekt this way than get rekt by having their seed phrase or hardware wallet physically compromised.

It's just not that much work to go from a seed phrase + pass phrase to a multisig with 3 seed phrases. You need to find a third physically secure location and stamp out another steel plate AND THAT'S IT. Spending does not require an additional trip to a secure location and you now have redundancy against failure which protects you against your greatest enemy: yourself.

I recommend seed signer to every pleb who is willing to get their hands dirty. I believe it is one of the best security models. It definitely has the best user interface (mad props to Keith Mukai) and by learning to use it you also learn a ton about bitcoin and self custody.

Hard agree on all your criticisms of NVK. Also, you forgot to mention how Cold Card used to be open source right up until someone forked his code and started a competing company. Now it's just 'source available'. I get the distinct feeling NVK is an enemy of open source. His motivation appears to be selfish; oriented toward his own profit instead of promoting freedom technology.

33 sats \ 5 replies \ @elvismercury 4 Apr

Also, you forgot to mention how Cold Card used to be open source right up until someone forked his code and started a competing company. Now it's just 'source available'. I get the distinct feeling NVK is an enemy of open source. His motivation appears to be selfish; oriented toward his own profit instead of promoting freedom technology.

The idea that the only valid form of software is free software -- which is what you're describing, which is a different license / conceptual entity than open source, which is why the term "open source" even exists -- is a pretty radical view, which reasonable people can disagree on.

Or at least, I disagree, and I think I'm reasonable.

27 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 4 Apr

Its an opinion I agree with you @elvismercury. I value open source software and use it if at all possible but my views on freedom mean I believe others should be able to close source or do whatever they want with their work. Also I don't believe IP exists so for some I'm all over the place I guess. It makes sense to me though.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @_vnprc 4 Apr

the only valid form of software is free software

Not sure why you tie this idea to my post. I never said that and I don't believe it because it's ridiculous.

33 sats \ 2 replies \ @elvismercury 4 Apr

Not sure why you tie this idea to my post. I never said that and I don't believe it because it's ridiculous.

Mainly from this:

Also, you forgot to mention how Cold Card used to be open source right up until someone forked his code and started a competing company. Now it's just 'source available'. I get the distinct feeling NVK is an enemy of open source. His motivation appears to be selfish; oriented toward his own profit instead of promoting freedom technology.

Labeling a guy who doesn't want his labor to be used by a competitor to launch a competing product as "an enemy of open source" is a hell of a leap.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @_vnprc 4 Apr

NVK was all for open source when it brought a benefit to his business. Now he's against it because it brings competition. In addition, he constantly attacks his open source competitors. This is incompatible with the open source ethos. It's not a leap at all. Don't put words in my mouth pls.

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 5 Apr

I'm not sure what words you think I put into your mouth -- I quoted your actual words, and then you just did what I described you as doing. Regardless, you can think whoever you want is an "enemy of open source", I don't care. Go nuts.

But "open source" as a construct is a term that describes a host of licenses, and NVK is both within his rights, and within the normative behavior of the "open source community", to adopt a particular one of those licenses for his business. You don't need to like it, but those are factual statements.

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8 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 3 Apr

Thanks for sharing this criticism. Its valid.

I am well aware of the criticisms you mention. I wanted to stick to the arguments he makes or should be making vs criticizing business decisions. You make valid points. I've heard his side of it. I would probably go a different direction if I were him, but I'm not.

SeedSigner has a very different target audience. I wish it was promoted more but it doesn't have a for profit company behind it. I honestly think this is a strength especially from state attack. Projects like SeedSigner are a big reason I'm bullish on bitcoin. Not that I believe we have to have signing devices but because they are very censorship resistant.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @cyberpunk02 3 Apr

it's true, just two different bricks, it's open source fud, @nvk stay humble, public apology please, you can do it!

108 sats \ 7 replies \ @xz 3 Apr freebie

Thinking about the the evil maid potentiality for compromised security exists?

An evil maid cleans your hotel room and your seedsigner, a singlesig signer for your wallet.

The maid boots up your airgapped seedsigner, clones it, and leaves a replacement pi. You don't notice your original pi has been swapped out which gives time for any pin cracking, whilst the wallet from your unlocked device (also copied by maid) is in the hotel room next door, over the week on holiday, you notice your wallet balance emptied.

Long shot, not sure that it's possible, but my guess it is?

Not defending any arrogance

8 sats \ 6 replies \ @kepford OP 3 Apr

Solid scenario but not one I've heard. Good reason to secure both your seed plates and signing device.

41 sats \ 5 replies \ @xz 3 Apr freebie

I guess it's uncommon for the sophisticated maid attack for the average hotel guest. But I hear that for high profile international visitors, diplomatic, possibly industry figures are going to run the risk of compromised security when traveling, corporate or political espionage.

I like both projects and I guess the advantage of seed signer is that it taught me much on how systems can be made secure with the caveat that there's always supply chain attack vectors.

Who are qualcomm, broadcom Inc.? Do they have my best interests at heart. I think that's where I'd like to learn about hardware specific for meeting the needs of the security conscious.

I like Coldcard being hardware without the software that puts me off other HWW.

18 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford OP 3 Apr freebie

There is no way I'd be taking my signing device with life savings with me on a trip... but I guess that's me. I would load up spending money on a mobile wallet before I'd do that.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @xz 3 Apr

Maybe attacks would be more sophisticated in future. Or just more sophisticated maids. That's my thought. It's future proofing to a degree.

I remember there was a post on SN about someone that got their wallet drained after moving to relocate. I guess there are those times too. Although that might have been down to a different security flaw, and all of this is hypothetical, who knows how much there will be risks moving forward.

33 sats \ 2 replies \ @xz 3 Apr

That's a fair point.

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 3 Apr

This is the "it depends" part so often missing from security discussions. Absolutists are usually full of it. They are usually more interesting in dunking on others vs. explaining and educating people so that can make informed decisions.

Also this whole comment section is why I spend time on SN. So much more valuable than the dumb Twitter crowd and I'll say it.. Nostr for the most part. Low attention span fiat brain rot is strong on short form web sites/social media.

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @xz 3 Apr

I feel ya.

62 sats \ 2 replies \ @BitByBit21 3 Apr

NVK is very smart but also likes trolling a lot and sometimes he misses the point in relation to tradeoffs (for instance, he also hates Raspberry Pi implementations). In this case I would say follow the incentives... After all, he's shilling his own company and products all the time. Also, he usually says that Bitcoin is not for poor people so I guess that if you can't afford a Coldcard you just don't deserve any other options.

29 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 3 Apr

NVK is very intelligent and I do not dislike him. He has built some great tools. That's what makes it so frustrating. To me this just makes him look bad as well as a perfectly valid project.

29 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 3 Apr

Seedsigner uses the Pi FYI.

I agree with you.

41 sats \ 1 reply \ @lloyddunne 3 Apr

NVK also said he wants OP_VAULT so that he won't need to sell hardware devices, which I find hard to believe. Like in all of Bitcoin, there are a lot of shills trying to fill their bags, so don't read too much into opinions unless they're backed by hard facts.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jp305 4 Apr

I always though there isn't much value in selling hardware, but in the case of a cold wallet, I went with coinkite because I trust their hardware more than the competition. He might be serious about this and I would think they would keep an edge for this reason.

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @nym 3 Apr

I think Coldcard Q will have a reckoning one day and users will lose funds. There is a lot of complexity in that device, and attackers will be working hard looking for vulnerabilities. It could be with a software update, or a bug when making a transaction.

6 sats \ 0 replies \ @chairman_pretense 4 Apr

Q seemed like a very rushed to market device. He saw where the wind was blowing with stateless QR support across Jade & Seedsigner and animated QR PSBT signing flow.

All the videos I've seen of the interface look janky as hell, lagging refresh rate on the screen and menus buried in menus. They got away with it on CC, but a device with the form factor of Q should be delivering more and with more care to UX.

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture 3 Apr

Love to see this and the use cases it represents!

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 3 Apr

It bugs me that the head of one of the most popular bitcoin hardware companies is hammering a volunteer lead open source project.