362 sats \ 7 replies \ @jeff 7 Apr
Scarcity makes everything more valuable.
Or does it?
Seems like an extreme.
The same way 2% inflation is an arbitrary centrally planned made up number, so is 0% population growth.
What are they gonna do if at 10M, medicine improves, and lifespan increases? Cut back on life-saving surgeries? Pay people to leave?
reply
The referendum is about restricting immigration.
Switzerland πŸ‡¨πŸ‡­ has a current population about 9 million. It’s a small country, small area.
Can Switzerland accommodate more than 10 million people? What about 20 million? 50 million? 100 million? 1 billion?
I know the wrong answer is infinity
reply
I totally get it.
Resources are scarce. Generosity has a limit. But people's attitude on entitlements are unbounded.
reply
Entitlement such as social security or handouts like welfare?
I think handouts are low in Switzerland compared to the rest of Europe.
Switzerland is a very productive country, probably most productive in Europe.
reply
10 sats \ 1 reply \ @jeff 8 Apr
I would count both of those examples as entitlements.
They can be low, currently, and still unbounded given enough elections.
History suggests that all democracies tend towards going the way of Greece - the place where democracy was first created. Japan. US. Germany. Australia. Canada. Its all the same lifecycle. Politicians buy votes, with money that doesn't exist. Switzerland might just be earlier along on that transition. Or, maybe they found the cure in other policies.
reply
Switzerland is different. They are and have been neutral. No EU membership. No NATO membership.
Switzerland is one of the wealthiest countries because they have avoided mostly the mistakes of its neighbors.
reply
The knowledge problem.
reply
great points
reply
And how the fuck do they plan on enforcing that?
reply
Eugenics might come into play...
reply
Immigration restrictions
reply
as a thought experiment, if you were in charge of enforcing this, how would you do it?
reply
I mean you'd have to go full China and start restricting births right? Like limiting families to x number of kids. And then severely increasing border security. Impossible to do without committing serious crimes against your population regardless...
reply
Immigration restrictions or total exclusion from certain countries
reply
People just want to get closer to a harder money or the money printer, so they look the US or the EU and the migration game is very much on, people won't cross seas and deserts if they didn't have an incentive to do it, or think at least feel/think they have one
While the local population just want to protect what they already have, and feel they have more to lose or further to fall as more people come in and competing for welfare, goods and services, housing stock etc and so fortress Europe begins
I don't see anything wrong with migration, move where you get the best deal for yourself
I would just consider what those incentive are, do they bring people in who want to take advantage of a welfare system or take advantage of possible opportunties to better their lot through work, and acquiring of private property
It's a really hard problem to solve and theres no silver bullet, I mean what place doesn;t have this issue? Maybe complete shitholes here in Africa, I mean who is lining up to migrate to Chad right now? Fucking no one! oh and North Korea i guess
reply
The problem is when new arrivals clash with the native population.
Immigrants from Eritrea πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡· are problematic.
reply
What can I say? We humans like to find new ways to not get along with one another, sometimes its the migrants trying to push their way sometimes its the locals protecting their way, sometimes its the faling government using the new arrivals as a boogyman or when resources are politicised instead of distributed through free market trade, there will always be clashes
No one has an issue when someone moves countries but have the resources to sort themselves out now do they? You're always seen as a net positive, even if your wealth was ill gotten gains lol
reply
Migrants should not push their way in a foreign or new country. They should not ruffle feathers. It’s the polite and reasonable thing to do. Problem is immigrants from certain parts of the world lack civility. They can’t read or spell civility
reply
For sure, people should respect property rights, the established rule of law of citizens in the country they go to, for me that should be a given, crimes should be treated accordingly regardless of peoples background or status
reply
Genocide is en vogue once again in Europe.
reply
From article:
The UDC previously warned that the country was being subsumed by mass migration, with new arrivals from Africa having welfare rates of 34 per cent.
Around two-thirds of prison inmates in Switzerland are foreign nationals, with Algerians representing the highest proportion.
reply
two-thirds of prison inmates in Switzerland
Its fairly astounding that Europe and US are both allowing neighboring countries to empty their prison population into them. I suppose thats one way to do away with liberties, etc...since the population will clamor for stronger and more draconian police forces to deal with the resulting crime surge.
Still, imagine the economic boom to the countries permitted to do this. Imagine being able to literally empty out your prisons of all violent murders and let another nation "take care" of them.
reply
Cuba sent criminals and clinical crazy men to Florida.
Mariel Harbor 1980.
Venezuela has the highest homicide rate in Latin America. They are sending their criminals to USA and Canada
reply
It’s also a class issue.
Immigrants tend to live in poor and working class neighborhoods. The lower and middle class native population bears the brunt of crime from immigrants.
The wealthy can shield themselves from immigrant criminals. Some can do so by living in a gated community, a gate with features resembling a wall
reply
Interesting context. It still doesn't make capping their native population very smart.
reply
Reading the article, and doing a little bit more research, it seems this is very much targeted against economic refugees, and not the native Swiss-born population.
reply
This. It's not about capping the native population. The UDC is a right-wing party and this is a campaign against restricting non-natives settling in Switzerland and to stop refugees (economic and otherwise) from entering the country in the first place.
Some context: The UDC has a long history of being anti-foreigner (starting in the 60/70s with Italian workers, then Balkan war refugees in the 90s and so on). It's kinda their thing to launch initiatives that sound good on paper but technically can't be made to work. For instance, back in 2016 they had one to force the government to stop dragging their feet with repatriating migrants that had no legal right of residence or asylum.
The initiative also has to be seen against the context of the bilateral agreement deals with the EU. Back then, the Swiss government negotiated a so called "valve clause" that would allow them to cap free movement if a certain threshold of EU citizens settles in Switzerland, while at the same time promising the Swiss people that this was an edge case anyway, and that the clause wouldn't be needed. Turns out, that was wrong and the government didn't do much about it because the clause can't technically be enforced without killing the EU agreements (or so the argument goes). Combine that with a laissez-fair enforcement politics on repatriation, rising prices and pressure on the Swiss population by well educated and highly mobile workers from the EU and you got a good foundation for successful campaing. At least on paper.
Then again, Switzerland needs some level of migration and the population knows that. Both well educated and cheap labor is needed to keep the country prospering. This has has been the case in the past as well. In the 70s, the Italians quite literally built large chunks of the country (Constructions), then in the 90s/00s the Balkan folks built up the low wage service sector (gastronomy, retail, call-centers, etc.), in the 10s the Germans in the health sector and now in the 20s the tech workers from Eastern and Southern Europe.
It'll be interesting to see which way the vote will go. The UDC is somewhat correct in that it's kinda getting cramped if nothing is done. And that there is a not unsubstantial amount of economic migrants having no business being in Switzerland. On top of that, the Ukrain question lingers in the background. But whether their initiative is a good recipe to solve all that is doubtful to say the least.
reply
Immigrants from Italy, Germany, Yugoslavia and other parts of Europe are different than immigrants from North Africa and sub Saharan Africa.
Immigrants from Yugoslavia can assimilate. Immigrants from Africa have demonstrated lack of ability and desire to assimilate.
reply
Switzerland πŸ‡¨πŸ‡­ is not a large country.
Can you imagine 50 million people living in Switzerland? I seriously doubt it
reply
100 percent
reply
The United States problem. It's a racemix...
reply
There is growing backlash to mass immigration in New Zealand πŸ‡³πŸ‡Ώ and Australia πŸ‡¦πŸ‡Ί
NZ population is about 5.3 million.
Switzerland is about 9 million
reply
No.
reply