P2P trading etiquette \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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3721 sats \ 32 comments \ @leo 17 May bitcoin

True peer-to-peer Bitcoin trading is great, it's legal, it preserves privacy, you don't have to pay any fees, and sometimes you even make friends. Do you buy and sell Bitcoin peer-to-peer, in person, maybe even for cash? What's something you consider P2P etiquette? What's something you wish more people did or knew?

I'll start:

I always meet in person, and will only transact Bitcoin and cash. I have to be very clear about that, because it already happened that people showed up in person, expecting me to take their wire transfer.
Great places to meet are libraries (if you and your peer are able to converse with a soft voice), hotel, bank or post lobbies. Bitcoin meetups can be the ideal place if you haven't transacted much P2P before.
I will make it clear in advance what reference exchange rate I typically use, e.g. the Kraken pair for my local currency
I don't accept or charge any markup or discount to the reference rate, but I do expect whoever is making the Bitcoin transaction to pay their network/routing fees
Lightning very much preferred! I don't want to sit around for an hour waiting for a block to be mined. I understand that especially for large amounts, this might not be practical
I haven't quite worked out the exact flow, but so far it seems to be most appropriate for the buyer to show they brought the cash, then share their Bitcoin address/LN invoice, then for both to agree on an exchange rate, then for the money to be counted and then for the Bitcoin transaction to be made. Once the Bitcoin transaction has been confirmed/completed, the seller takes the cash off the table.
There's no safe way to advertise these deals, and I don't think there will be. So offers and bids are likely made in your local groups's Telegram chat room, or the local Bitcoin meetup. It's always worth to ask at the end of the trade if they would like to meet again. Most people are either consistently selling (for example because they're earning Bitcoin), or buying (because they're stacking or spending). Good to know who belongs to the other group than you!

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52 sats \ 0 replies \ @0fje0 17 May

Even though I've been using your approach almost exactly like you've described it, I still appreciate your writing it down and posting it here. I can't recall seeing it explained this well before, thanks.

As the saying goes: the problem with common sense, is that it's not common at all.

134 sats \ 4 replies \ @gunson 17 May

As a net P2P buyer (mainly via Robosats) I'm always curious about people selling.

Where did you get your Bitcoin in the first place? P2P, KYC CEX, mined or earned?

And what's your aversion to wire transfers if it's legal? There's obviously no direct Bitcoin link, although your peer will know your name 🤷‍♂️ Or are you just trying to avoid your bank seeing "income"?

18 sats \ 0 replies \ @cointastical 17 May

Sending remittance via p2p can be cheaper, or faster, or easier than the traditonal pukes like Western Union or MoneyGram.

I might even do p2p on both ends ... Buy Bitcoin in my country, via p2p then sell in the remittance recipient's country, again, via p2p.

22 sats \ 1 reply \ @neurojack 17 May

For me I sometimes sell of a bit of an old stack. Sometimes KYC CEX.

Wire transfers are problematic, for me at least. The bank will start asking questions, and the peer knows your name.

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @gunson 17 May

So you take cash, right? And do you use it at stores only, or also for big things like rent/mortgage?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Signal312 17 May

I read on a forum, one of the P2P sellers mentioned he buys on KYC platforms, and sells immediately P2P, just for the arbitrate opportunity.

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bitcoiner1 17 May

Just dropping a few comments about your post:

Doing the trade face to face is not possible in a country where delinquency is every where. Imagine, you go to the library to meet the buyer, he go with two bad guys 🔫. You will send the funds for free.
What about if you receive fake money for your SATs? That's a good reason to do deal in a bank asking the buyer to deposit the funds in your account. Or you can meet in a casino and get paid in the casino tokens.

I'd rather use the lnp2pbot or Mostro so they don't release the funds until the payment has been completed.

100 sats \ 2 replies \ @Maximux 17 May

Can someone share the links to the P2P Platforms that have BTC Lightning?

4 sats \ 0 replies \ @cointastical 17 May freebie

The ones that do don't have much in the way of offers, or offers at a reasonable price.

If I don't have time to wait for an offer I create to result in a counterparty, I find that using a swap service solves half my issue. So I might swap to LTC, or USDT (TRC20), and then sell that shitcoin on the p2p exchange (e.g., on localcoinswap).

That sucks to use a shitcoin, but that's where the liquidity for p2p is. And fees are trivial on those chains.

FixedFloat was my favorite swap service, but looks like they are gone for good.

https://cointastical.github.io/KYC-Free-Instant-Exchanges/

I think coinswap.click is what I used most recently.

2 sats \ 0 replies \ @cointastical 17 May

https://cointastical.github.io/P2P-Trading-Exchanges

Look for the ones with the Lightning emoji

51 sats \ 0 replies \ @teemupleb 17 May

On a P2P trading platform like Robosats when you’re in the chatroom, I think it’s good etiquette to just get through the trade as soon as possible.

I’ve noticed some people wait around until the timer runs out or are just generally slow in communicating.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 17 May

P2P with a service provider is better for protection. You can even put your life into danger if you plan face to face. I dare someone do 100 FTF transactions, 1 time someone will try to take it on the point of a gun.

18 sats \ 0 replies \ @cristaiji 17 May

Great post I’ve bookmarked. Thanks.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @riberet19 17 May

I usually buy and sell P2P with a couple of real friends, it's the best, nothing can compare that.

14 sats \ 1 reply \ @Natalia 17 May freebie

agree, generally ppl you trust, I wouldn't meet with complete stranger to do the trade.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @riberet19 17 May

Me neither, there are a lot of risks involved in meeting a person to trade p2p, even if the exchange goes well, that person knows you have Bitcoin and may not have good intentions, you don't even have to trust your shadow sometimes.

31 sats \ 2 replies \ @Satosora 17 May

Interesting. Is this in the USA? I could do with a bit more anonymity.

110 sats \ 1 reply \ @leo OP 17 May

I'm not in the US, but I know it works there too. Other commenters have pointed out that in the US the risk of counterfeit bills is significant, so maybe that would be a useful addition

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 17 May

I dont think the average person actually sees counterfeit bills.

28 sats \ 0 replies \ @freetx 17 May

Good write up.

Back in the 2000s I used to buy silver / gold coins in P2P meetups. I would meet in busy coffee shops. Never had a problem.

Like you said you can quickly meet dedicated sellers and then your job is much easier because trust gets built.

For new purchases, I would bring a "Fisch Scale" (https://www.thefisch.com/) to check the coin was legit....never had a problem getting fake coins...but once I knew someone I wouldn't bring it in to coffee shop as I trusted them.

The seller I bought the most from would scavenge estate sales looking for old coin collections. The other guy I bought from was actually a police officer (almost spit my coffee out when he told me that), had no idea where he was getting gold coins from and didn't want to ask...

8 sats \ 0 replies \ @MusicTrappa 17 May

Thanks for the tips

8 sats \ 4 replies \ @Wumbo 17 May freebie

Great write up.

Two additional thought:

As the buyer you may want to buy a counterfeit testing pen. They are relatively cheap and great EDC tool in this situation.
If onchain transaction, may want to confirm ahead of time number of confirmed blocks needed for confirmation.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @P2P_bitcoin 17 May

As the buyer of cash? (i.e., paying with bitcoin? )

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @P2P_bitcoin 17 May

Do you know how to detect a bleached bill that has been re-printed as a $100 ?

Your pen says it is legit.

110 sats \ 0 replies \ @endothermicdev 18 May

It would be missing a prominent blue holographic stripe running through the paper.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Wumbo 17 May

No, I don't

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @P2P_bitcoin 17 May freebie

Tips for local transactions https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137272.msg1463290#msg1463290

You want to avoid being included in the following list:

Known Physical Bitcoin Attacks https://github.com/jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks/blob/master/README.md

SafeTrade Stations https://www.safetradestations.com/where-to-trade.html

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @Signal312 17 May

Yes, and the Known Physical Bitcoin Attacks list is not complete/not being updated properly. It has some recent info, but there's also some that are not included, for whatever reason.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @tolot 18 May

Nice suggestions, although I'd say that Telegram groups are not really the best place to talk about bitcoin p2p transfers. Telegram chats are public and you never know who's in there.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @leo OP 18 May

What would you say the risk is if somebody nefarious knew I sold $5000 worth of Bitcoin on a specific day? Looking at the group, they would not know who I sold it to, or where we met, or what the specifics of the deal were

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Lumor 18 May

Did you use Coinjoin or CEX to obfuscate original UTXO sizes?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @MekongMonkey 18 May

I've conducted hundreds of face-to-face cash trades over the years, initially starting out on LocalBitcoins many years ago. While it's unavoidable to encounter some unsavory characters in these dealings, most of my experiences have been with decent people who are as committed to a satisfactory transaction as I am.

When meeting someone new for a trade, I always start with the smallest amount that’s worth both our time. It’s easy to discern if someone is a genuine Bitcoiner or just trying to cash out some ill-gotten gains. If you find yourself discussing Austrian economics or Lightning channel management, you're probably in good company :) The kind of wallet they use is also a big tell.

Here are a few practical tips I've picked up:

Agree on clear terms of the trade before the meeting.
Meet in locations you know well. I prefer coffee shops in malls that I'm familiar with.
Arrive early to settle in and observe your contact as they arrive. If you expect one person and they bring friends, you can easily slip away. It's much harder to do this if you arrive late and face the situation head-on.
Trust your instincts. If something feels off, leave immediately.

There’s always a bit of stress involved with meeting someone for a cash trade for the first time, but after a while, you mainly deal with people you already know. Then, it becomes an excellent opportunity to catch up with a fellow Bitcoiner and complete a satisfactory transaction for both parties.