I’m sure most here have heard someone say “real communism has never been tried” whether in jest or a serious comment. This has made me wonder, has there ever been a market truly free from any regulation or form of centralization? It seems that any market I can think of has some form of commanding force driving a part of an economy. Are free and open markets just a fantasy? In a “democracy” it seems almost natural for a smooth talker to convince voters to give them power to regulate and everything will magically become more equitable. This is understandable too because the common voter does not have any understanding of economics. Is the only solution more knowledge to the general public? There already exists all the data and knowledge available at our fingers, and yet here we are in 2024 and people still think Marxism or Communism will solve all of our problems. I just think about 20 years in the future and it seems like we will move further and further towards a central force controlling more of the economy, which is quite concerning.
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44 sats \ 1 reply \ @cristaiji 12 Jun
The UK is a weird mix of socialist and capitalist policies. However we don’t have free markets or sound money, basically just an oligarchy.
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33 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Jun
UK has been socialist since 1914
It was a free market economy and society from 1846 to 1914
Queen Victoria, Gladstone, Disraeli and World War One
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111 sats \ 3 replies \ @jeff 12 Jun
I can't think of an example of a totally free market.
But on this...
I think there is a large fraction of the population of the human race that is hindered biologically with a cap on critical thinking skills. I'm sure this must be studied, but it's probably not popular to discuss because it's not polite to call dumb people dumb, for the same reason you shouldn't call fat people fat. It's not their fault. It's just biology. I think democracy prevails as the least shitty of a list of shitty coordination tools, despite this swath of intellectually stunted people. People just have different strengths and weaknesses embedded in their DNA.
So I don't think "more knowledge" will actually help.
It is easy to see what I mean in an app/social-network called Nextdoor. The algorithm gives you content based primarily on your physical proximity to other people. And if you look at that feed, and kindof people-watch, you'll see patterns of people struggling with critical thinking. Lack of critical thinking, is the common denominator of the patterns you'll see. Examples include people who jump to believe one-sided stories as presented, where the OP is clearly/likely exaggerating or leaving out information for sympathy. People warning people of scams, but not understanding the scam or leaving out important information for the warning to be effective. Then, there are people posting complete drivel; that somehow get replies - and neither can contextualize the entire thread so they both talk past each other. Tangentially, and routinely, you'll see people get confused between making top-level posts, replying to a thread, or sending a DM; they'll post replies or DMs as top level posts, then go AWOL when people laugh at them in the comment section. I live in a neighborhood with houses that cost above the national average. I'm not sure if there is link between these observations, but, seems relevant.
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45 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bell_curve 12 Jun
Next door is useless for actual neighborhood issues
Mrs Kravitz would love it
She was a character on bewitched
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @jeff 12 Jun
Gleaning insights from the state of society is a use case.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BoJack OP 13 Jun
Damn great reply. Nextdoor sounds interesting I’ll have to check it out. Also I like how you made it sound like a zoo but it does feel like that sometimes.. Especially around topics like economics.
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63 sats \ 6 replies \ @Undisciplined 12 Jun
Technically, no.
Even the freest economies ever had some direct state interventions. Perhaps more importantly, they were also connected to centrally planned economies, which means their own markets were distorted by those foreign state interventions.
Democracy is incompatible with fully free markets, unless it's heavily constrained to a small set of trivial coordination questions.
Free markets are predicated on private property rights being protected. State interventions violate those, by definition, in almost all cases.
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84 sats \ 1 reply \ @riberet19 12 Jun
I guess a completely free market requires a complete absence of government, and that has not happened, as long as there is government, there will be intervention.
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64 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 12 Jun
Correct
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21 sats \ 3 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Jun
Private property rights are more important than defending democracy.
There is a good argument for restricting the franchise to property or business owners.
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42 sats \ 1 reply \ @BoJack OP 13 Jun
I agree about that protecting private property is far more important. From reading some of the founding fathers words it seemed almost like this was an obvious idea amongst them, I wonder what changed.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Jun
The progressive movement was and is antithetical to the original vision of the USA 🇺🇸 Constitution
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 12 Jun
I agree, but the scope of what can be voted on also has to be heavily constrained.
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65 sats \ 4 replies \ @dontforgetthekeys 12 Jun
silk ro--.
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21 sats \ 2 replies \ @riberet19 12 Jun
Good point, but the government intervened.
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31 sats \ 1 reply \ @dontforgetthekeys 12 Jun
because centralized.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @riberet19 12 Jun
Correct
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42 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Jun
Free Ross
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42 sats \ 0 replies \ @kilianbuhn 12 Jun
The early days of the american western frontier is pretty close
Although the spanish part had an economy that included more capital ownership. The english/french parts had more separation from centralized government infrastructure from the old world
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42 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 12 Jun freebie
Not yet because government always sticks its ugly/greedy hands into everything.
I have heard that the black market after WW2 in europe was pretty crazy.
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42 sats \ 1 reply \ @nout 13 Jun
Chile during Chicago Boys had some hints of free market.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Jun
Post Allende
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42 sats \ 1 reply \ @SatsMate 12 Jun
I think there have been periods of time where a true free market exists. I haven't lived through it here in the U.S.
I do think Adam Smith from several centuries ago lived through and studied true free markets. I think to return to a pure free market would take some time.
Places from my view that look like free markets right now is places like India or Argentina.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Jun
The genius of Adam Smith was that he created a blueprint of a free market invisible hand economy based on his thinking not necessarily experience. He was a critic of mercantilism and his opus was partially a critique of that system. Free trade is better than mercantilism.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 12 Jun
To be very clear here, Bitcoin is solving all our problems.
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