What is the state of Self-Sovereignity for poor people?
241 sats \ 18 comments \ @kilianbuhn 10 Aug 2022 bitcoin
Last time I checked:
  • Hardware (e.gm RaspberryPi or used old Laptop) and electricity cost are pretty affordable (100k-500k sats)
  • Setting up Software is free (0 sats)
  • Channel opening or using zerofeerouting (8k sats)
  • The main problem is having a channel open. Nobody wants to open a channel to someone with 0 or only 2 other channels. Nobody opens channels below 1m sats. So minimum 3 million sats?
Has something of these points changed? Are there cheaper methods to get hardware? Are there ccheaper ways to open channels? Is there a place for small channels nowadays?
write
preview
related posts
246 sats \ 2 replies \ @TheBTCManual 10 Aug 2022
I think there is a hurdle rate as a South African I can tell you very few people will be able to do this you need
  • A reliable power source which we don't have
  • So you need an uninterrupted power supply to keep you from getting hit with blackouts or have solar panels with a deep cell battery
  • Very few people have fibre internet and use mobile internet so you need a sim card with data on it ($5.20 per GB)
  • If you don't have mobile data towers in your area you'll need a satellite dish to either broadcast an internet connection or broadcast locally to someone who has an internet connection
  • You need liquidity, which you either need to buy from an exchange who is going to take fees off you or use a non-kyc which is going to hit you with a 30-90% premium
Then when you finally one deal with all that channel management BS lol, not very practical, the way I see it you will have to run uncle jim models which is not unpopular here.
So what people will do is all pay 1 guy who will cover the cost to get a fibre connection for example and everyone connects to that WIFI, people do it with satellite dish tv too and even banking, we call it a "stokvel" where people all give their money to a community member who "saves/invests it"
reply
63 sats \ 1 reply \ @nullcount 10 Aug 2022
"everyone should run a node" is like "everyone should be an investor".
We're all better off when people specialize.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 10 Aug 2022
I don't think everyone should run a node, but everyone should have the option to, most people wont and they'll need to find someone they trust or trust a company and if they get rekt worse than the cost of running a node that's their own fault
reply
110 sats \ 0 replies \ @Wumbo 10 Aug 2022
Good topic. Another bullet point I would add is internet access.
  • A person will need a couple days of access to download blockchain for node or run a prune node.
reply
3 sats \ 3 replies \ @nullcount 10 Aug 2022
https://lightningnetwork.plus/ is a "cheaper" way to open channels.
If you're about to open a channel anyways, sign up for a swap and get a second channel for "free".
reply
0 sats \ 2 replies \ @kilianbuhn OP 10 Aug 2022
But those aren't permanent channels for poor people, are they?
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @nullcount 10 Aug 2022
No channel is "permanent" either side can close at any time.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kilianbuhn OP 11 Aug 2022
Right. But are they intended for one time use and never longer than 3 months or a possibility for people to be connected forever?
reply
3 sats \ 0 replies \ @nout 10 Aug 2022
Note that 500k sats is actually a lot of money for someone poor outside of US. That's like a month of food...
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nkmg1c_ventures 10 Aug 2022
I think Bitcoin adoption is intertwined with ideas about hard money, government and financial corruption, history of econ. There are many people I meet who don't think about these things often even though they affect all our lives. I think Bitcoiners that are working on evangelism should also focus discussion not just on BTC, but concepts of "hard money" and dangers of fiat inflation, which they obviously have. But it still needs time to percolate I think.
Some of these ideas are libertarian and many people mistrust libertarianism on a political/personal level, they view it is as modified alt-right thing and don't like the criticisms of welfare or social spending by government. The aim of BTC evangelism should be convincing people who do need help from current government / fiat system what problem Bitcoin may solve / alleviate.
Ideas about sovereign hard money need to be presented differently to different people, and in different contexts. Everyone has a different view the role of government. Presumably many social welfare advocates would be pro bitcoin if the argument put in terms of social welfare of a greater number of people. But then you'd have the very staunch libertarians balking at that.
reply
0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Modus 10 Aug 2022
On-chain.
Poor people probably won't run any node, let alone a lightning node.
On-chain is where self-sovereignty lives.
reply
3 sats \ 1 reply \ @kilianbuhn OP 10 Aug 2022
Onchain is more expensive.
I dislike the idea of the world being more expensive the poorer one is. I also dislike the idea of non-custodialship self-sovereignty being unachievable for poor people.
Remember that large parts of the world population see 1$ a day as a normal income.
And Lightning was made to sink the barrier to entry. Can't it go lower?
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Modus 10 Aug 2022
On chain isn't always expensive. It's often quite cheap.
I think lightning is just not a great solution for poor people. (I need to learn more about quasi custodial wallets muun, breez & phoenix. Those might be good for poor people.) Fedi mints will be awesome, but until then i would probably recommend poor people use liquid (yes liquid) or on chain over lightning.
And Lightning was made to sink the barrier to entry. Can't it go lower?
In theory, yes, but there's a lot more work to do. I think fedi mints will get there before lightning gets there.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @shyfire 10 Aug 2022
Relevant post discussing this topic https://wallet.build/losing-your-keys-without-losing-your-coins/
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @faithandcredit 10 Aug 2022
a homeless person is fully self soverign, no taxes, no ID maybe even. but if he dare step into the world of commerce, get a job, a house or whatever. then boom, taxes, ID, surveilance, bim bam boom. self soverignty gone
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @mikhael 10 Aug 2022
The barter system.
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @BeardedSaintRef 10 Aug 2022
I agree with you bro…there’s so many ways to do this though.
https://github.com/rootzoll/raspiblitz
reply
3 sats \ 0 replies \ @kilianbuhn OP 10 Aug 2022
I don't get it 😂😂 What exactly is your point? 🤨
reply