BDMD #3 - Bitcoin is illegal because it is not legal tender
4138 sats \ 28 comments \ @DarthCoin 1 Jul bitcoin_beginners
BDMD = Bitcoin deniers myths debunked This is a series of short posts about Bitcoin myths and nocoiner fallacies, debunked or explained. BDMD #1 - Bitcoin was hacked / will be hacked BDMD #2 - Govs will shut down internet, so Bitcoin is dead
First of all
You cannot force a retailer to accept legal tender or indeed any other form of tender. If, however, you buy something from them and there is no contractual barrier to use of any form of tender, and you offer legal tender in payment, and they refuse it, then they cannot enforce the debt in court.
That’s what legal tender means: it’s about discharging debts. If you incur a debt you can discharge it with legal tender, but you cannot be forced to incur the debt in the first place.
TLDR: "legal tender" is debt. Bitcoin cannot be debt because is property. Is more like credit (if we want to speak in accounting language). See more about legal tender from @Lux pill - #511157
In March 2013, the US Financial Crimes Enforcement Network issued a new set of guidelines on "decentralized virtual currency"; clearly targeting Bitcoin. Under the new guidelines, "a virtual currency user is not a money services company (MSB) under FinCEN regulations and is therefore not subject to MSB registration, reporting and record keeping regulations". Miners, when mining bitcoins for their personal use, are not required to register as an MSB or Money Transmitter.
Generally, there are several currencies that are not official government-backed currencies. After all, a currency is nothing more than a convenient unit of account. While national laws may vary from country to country, and you should certainly check the laws in your jurisdiction, generally trading any product, including digital currency such as Bitcoin, BerkShares, gaming currencies such as WoW gold or the Linden dollars, it's not illegal.
Generally speaking, if somebody wants to trade with me in pink shells, nobody as a 3rd party can force upon me to trade in black stones. I like more pink shells and are more useful for me.
Another aspect that people should understand: gov "laws" DO NOT APPLY TO BITCOIN. They apply only to fiat money. There's no proof that a gov can have any jurisdiction or authority over your own money (Bitcoin), yet they are the OWNERS of any fiat money. Please make this important distinction.
Also governments cannot use Bitcoin as money. You will never see any gov paying its employees (citizens) in sats. Govs are paying only with debt. So please stop saying "X country will adopt Bitcoin". Is a total bullshit.
BITCOIN IS FOR SOVEREIGN INDIVIDUALS
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142 sats \ 0 replies \ @Lux 1 Jul
If the buyer buys something, and the seller refuses to take offered legal tender, the debt is discharged. If the contract does not specify differently.
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22 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 1 Jul
this question of being illegal is history, only deniers don't see it.
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21 sats \ 2 replies \ @IamSINGLE 1 Jul
When did anyone say that 'Bitcoin is illegal'. I'm not very old with Bitcoin but I've come to know that Bitcoin is beyond legal and illegal terms.
Thanks Darth! Withe these everyday posts, I learn and confirm a lot of things about Bitcoin.
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11 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin OP 1 Jul
These are questions from nocoiners / bitcoin haters (buttcoiners) that we hear over and over from the beginning of Bitcoin.
I accumulated them over all these 12 years I was in Bitcoinlandia and now I just want to post them one by one on SN, so others can share them with more nocoiners asking over and over same questions.
You can see more like these on https://endthefud.org/
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @IamSINGLE 1 Jul
Thanks! I'm bookmarking your every post and it'll be a book very soon. Whenever I'll meet a nocoiner or buttcoiner, I'll slap them with these.
I'll have a look at the link. Thanks again.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @TNStacker 1 Jul
We don't need a government telling us what we can accept as payment and they don't. Great explanation here, which most do not understand.
Most excellent post, Lord @DarthCoin!
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 1 Jul
There's no proof that a gov can have any jurisdiction or authority over your own money (Bitcoin), yet they are the OWNERS of any fiat money.
They are the owners because people choose to be enslaved. If all human beings deny the debt, government can't force them to the court.
People thinking their paper notes as money are merely imitating a propoganda that was imposed long ago. Most people know it but when you ask them what is money? Their foolish reply is 'the fiat currency' which is just a medium. It can't be money.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @zapsammy 1 Jul
when we start living in post-scarcity society with abundance of resources (which may even be a small hub of sane population in a sovereign citadel), i will gladly accept a hug and a good joke as payment.
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10 sats \ 3 replies \ @NRS 1 Jul
Do you think El Salvador will be the first country to use Bitcoin, sooner or later will the world be in the embrace of decentralization, and I think El Salvador will be one of the first countries in this field, especially after adopting sustainable energy (volcanoes) in Bitcoin mining
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44 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 1 Jul
For a country like El Salvador, if they really want to do it right is to start mining Bitcoin as a country (public company owned by each individual).
That means the bitcoin mined will be used to pay other private companies to maintain the national public infrastructure. In this way the gov public administration could fund itself, without taxing (robbing) people.
That is a real start of a Bitcoin circular economy. But in reality, govs will be outed slowly, because they will never do that.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @NRS 1 Jul
I wish to establish a public company owned by each individual And expelling governments out, governments are the basis of backwardness and barbarism
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BallLightning 4 Jul
Unfortunately countries can (and probably will) use bitcoin as an actual currency. They can pay government employees with bitcoin.
Country adopting and explicitly using bitcoin will diminish the ability of the state to collect taxes, but it WON'T eliminate it.
El Salvador is ruled by a dictator. In this specific case the country has no control over its currency, which currently is USD. Bukele loses zero power by switching to BTC, since the switch is from one form of money he has no control over to another form of money he has no control over.
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0 sats \ 8 replies \ @kepford 9h
@DarthCoin
Also governments cannot use Bitcoin as money. You will never see any gov paying its employees (citizens) in sats. Govs are paying only with debt. So please stop saying "X country will adopt Bitcoin". Is a total bullshit.
I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by this. There was a time when governments minted gold coins (minted meaning melted them down into coins). They would stamp the image of the ruler on them or something like that.
They use gold as the medium of exchange. Taxes were levied in these gold coins. The government had a treasury of gold and silver. Loans were made with gold and silver. Interest was paid in these metals as well.
Now, would you say these governments adopted gold? Adopted meaning they recognized its value by using it. I would say yes. Now, I do NOT think that this was required to validate gold. Gold was used as a store of value and medium of exchange outside of governments as well as between them. Money pre-dates the state. Many modern dumb economists seem to believe the money doesn't exist without the state. Its rather absurd.
So, I assume you do not mean this when you say no government will adopt bitcoin. If bitcoin destroys fiat currencies which we see it doing slowly right now at some point either the states will fail or they will start using bitcoin like they previously used gold. They will try to inflate it as they tried with gold. I think you mean that governments are just opposed to bitcoin because bitcoin is anti-government by design.
Another question. If governments are just just corporations that have tricked the masses into believing have legitimate power can a corporation adopt bitcoin? I believe a corporation can adopt bitcoin. Adopt is probably the wrong word here. Use is probably a better word.
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15 sats \ 7 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 8h
Gold was used as a store of value and medium of exchange outside of governments as well as between them.
For who? For you? I don't think so. Who is the government?
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0 sats \ 6 replies \ @kepford 8h
Come on @DarthCoin. I'm trying to understand what you mean by your statements.
You know I'm not a statist. this has nothing to do with legitimacy. I know who the government is. What do you mean by "adopt"?
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5 sats \ 5 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 7h
Govs cannot "produce" anything, right? They just use debt. Is Bitcoin debt?
For a gov to adopt Bitcoin, it must mine it and then use it to pay for its employees and costs. But that will not be anymore a gov as we know it. Will be a pure commercial company.
If a gov (as a common public enterprise, owned by everybody) will mine BTC, will have to be considered a common good, so each individual that is also the "owner" of that enterprise will have to agree for what is spent that BTC mined.
If you think of a gov as adopting bitcoin by buying it, then the question is with who's money they buy it? The logical answer will be "with people taxes", but in fact is not like that. They buy it with mode debt, printing more fiat.
That's why I said: Bitcoin can be adopted only by individuals and not by govs / countries. Govs cannot manage properly the custody of these BTC and will always try to go back to fiat system...
Bitcoin will change TOTALLY the whole system as we think it is in something new, based on individual property. Govs as we know them, cannot exist in a Bitcoin world. They simply succumb itself.
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21 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford 7h
Govs cannot "produce" anything, right?
Correct. Governments steal the products of individuals and use it for their own goals.
They just use debt. Is Bitcoin debt?
Bitcoin isn't debt. Neither is gold. They both can function as a medium of exchange. But, I could borrow from you and agree to pay you interest in gold or bitcoin. This is possible with any medium of exchange. I could borrow bitcoin from you and in exchange agree to work it off.
This all has nothing to do with the legitimacy of government. Governments are criminal gangs. Can gangs use a medium of exchange? Can money be stolen or extorted? Of course it can.
I think you are just talking about the legitimacy of the state? So if by "adopt bitcoin" you mean can the state legitimately acquire bitcoin the answer is no. They can't. They also can't legitimately acquire gold or anything that has value. They only steal. If this is what you mean then I'm in agreement with you.
But, governments do steal bitcoin today(US Gov) and some acquire it using stolen fiat from their subjects(El Salvador Gov). And if I'm understanding you correctly you are saying El Salvador hasn't "adopted bitcoin" because they do not obtain it under lawful means because by definition the state (any state) is illegitimate under natural law. They have not gained the consent to do what they are doing. They only use force to obtain value.
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55 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 7h
Yes, they steal it because they are fucking mafia. Nothing else.
They only use force to obtain value.
Exactly that.
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100 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford 7h
OK, thanks for humoring me @DarthCoin. I think I get you now and we agree.
I truly believe bitcoin will slowly destroy the state by incentives as it exposes it for what it is. Curious if you believe that will happen as well. I have no idea how long that will take but I believe it will happen.
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55 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin OP 6h
Curious if you believe that will happen as well
My answer is simple and always the same:
But with kind of people we have nowadays, with fiat mindset deep into their brains, It will take a loooooong way to achieve that dream. I truly think now that Bitcoin is only for the brave, the freedom fighters and will use it whatever will take as a "weapon" against the system. Centuries of human stupidity cannot be wiped out in just few years. Not in our lifetime....
As I always said: Bitcoin is my plan B, not a plan A... where Plan A is skills, knowledge, self-sufficiency, living a simple life
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 9h
This one is funny. Reminds me of the joke I heard years ago about over complying person that got pulled over by the police.
Officer, did you pull me over because I was speeding, or was it because my tail light is out. I only had 3 beers, probably not that. Oh, it's probably because my license has expired...
These people have this weird assumption that governments grant us permission to do things vs. the way we are taught it is supposed to work. The people grant the government certain privileges to govern a limited number of things in society.
Of course the truth is there isn't legitimate consent granted to any government. They are rulers using manipulation, propaganda, and violence to keep people compliant. Some us know what how it works. Others are delusional and believe the lies.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SatsMate 2 Jul
There are politicians as we speak trying to get Bitcoin as a money for payment in taxes.
These bureacrats want our bitcoin, and they are trying to create (legal) ramps for us to do so. Do not cave!
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 1 Jul
Different laws in different places.
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43 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin OP 1 Jul
This chart is TOTALLY wrong. There's no such thing as "Bitcoin legality". You can't make Bitcoin legal or illegal. Bitcoin it just exist. It is math. Can you make math legal or illegal?
You can say that this chart represent the "legality" of exchanging BTC for fiat. That is totally another story, because it touches fiat.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 1 Jul
I also know that this chart is wrong. Bitcoin is not illegal anywhere. Anyone who operates the internet in any corner of the world can deal in Bitcoin. I have told this chart only about the law.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @X_SHORTSVID 1 Jul outlawed
stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @NaOD 7h outlawed
stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.