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0 sats \ 7 replies \ @yo2xncv0 30 Sep \ on: Rambling thoughts of a Maximalist - All 'crypto' goes to zero bitcoin
I find this argument schizophrenic...
If these systems are permissionless...What stops governments from just using Coinjoins/lightning for privacy like you do? Or even swap to Monero or whatever privacy coin for when they want a transaction to be private? They can just hide behind a veil of "national security", "top secret", or "classified" like they already do.
If you're relying on politics and regulations for Bitcoin to succeed...you still don't understand Bitcoin. It's entire architecture is designed to operate without permission from any authority.
Monero doesn't have the liquidity for really large (billion $) transactions. And while coinjoins are great... try coinjoining 500 million $ of bitcoin (or a large transaction for a government) it won't work. I don't think coinjoins can handle sizes that large honestly. And in the process all the government is doing is adding liquidity/size to coinjoins that they are presumably opposed to.
I don't depend on regulation. However 'global money' means that everyone will use it. Banks, nation states, individuals, businesses, Wall Street... everyone. There will be regulations and there will be governments anarchy is not realistic.
And in that world people want to make sure that the money they are using is 'clean' and there's a large aspect of transparency. Transparency of supply and transparency for compliance. Some business buys it or accepts it... they have 'risk and compliance' they need to make sure everything is clean and regulated. Imo that's the real world...
Bitcoin can have the 'light' markets & and the 'dark' markets and they will need to coexist in global money.
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Maybe not at this moment, but we're talking about the future. I expect both Bitcoin and Monero to grow over time and other layers to emerge. Obviously they wouldn't do half a billion at once, but broken up and over time, and smaller amounts for covert operations. The same way 3 letter agencies use Tor.
That wasn't an argument on the viability of anarchy. It was just a fact about Bitcoin. If its security and success is at the mercy of regulations then it failed it's entire value prop. We already have money backed by politics; it's called fiat
There is no advantage to making a Bitcoin transaction that follows the rules and is "regulatory friendly" and "compliant". Why not just use digital fiat for those transactions? It's the most rule following thing to use. Cheaper, faster, and has a much larger network effect than Bitcoin too. Bitcoin is black market money at it's core. All white market transactions are permissioned by definition.
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Bitcoin is 2 markets that exist at once. The 'lit' market, which helps with savings and price, 'investment grade'. And the 'dark' or gray market - which is entirely peer and peer and is completely permissionless. Both these markets need each other.
In my opinion any crypto that attempts to be only one or the other... will fail. Both coexist. Both need each other too.
Too 'lit' and regulated and the market will run back to being peer to peer - with a heavy emphasis on privacy tools. Too private, with only a peer to peer dark-net application, and normies won't use it. People won't want to save in it.
This is currently (from what I can tell) the state of monero.
Bitcoin is both.
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Saving with Bitcoin or any crypto on the white market doesn't protect your "investment" or "savings" (or only fleetingly so). Your savings are already being leeched from if you ever spend/trade it on the white market. Governments will continue increasing taxes to offset any savings (i.e. realized and unrealized capital gains taxes) or make any arbitrary rules they want. We already see them starting to do this.
At some point white market Bitcoin savings and transactions will be as manipulated as any other fiat/stock/financial instrument. They can even make it illegal to use "self-hosted" wallets (like legislation being proposed in Europe) and require you to leave your Bitcoin with "certified custodians" where they can print IOUs freely and rug you.
If you refuse any of this you are now in black market territory again.
Using white markets means you are relying on politics to secure your wealth yet again (defeats the entire advantage of Bitcoin). If you wanted to follow the rules, digital fiat money is already superior to Bitcoin at that.
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The taxing of Bitcoin to pay for everyday goods and services (for example through captial gains taxes) is wrong, unethical, and illogical. It needs to stop.
I think my point is that people, myself included, want to spend Bitcoin on day-to-day goods and services. Groceries, cups of coffee, gas in the car whatever. Not because I have much Bitcoin (I don't) but because I believe that Bitcoin is better money and I want to put my money where my beliefs are... convert my fiat to Bitcoin and generally use it like money, like how it was intended. Peer to peer cash.
I believe that the creation and adoption of Bitcoin, as decentralized internet money, in competition to government money or 'Fiat' is one of the greatest events of the 21st century. It is a revolutionary idea that actually competes with governments, competes with the government debt and inflation and it cannot be adopted soon enough to provide a 'check' on government influence, risk, and credit.
With regards to Monero... I have respect for the monero community. However they want crypto to be 'private' and 'untraceable'... but it's BS. The vast majority of people don't care about privacy or how or where they are traced. The vast majority of people have phones that track their every location... and most people don't know that every website they use, without a VPN, probably leaks their IP address and location. It is outrageous and they... don't care.
People will not go out of their way to be 'private' and 'undiscovered'... but they understand inflation and what 'the printer' does to their savings over the long term.
As far as restrictions on self-hosted markets and software... well the EU can pound sand. Bitcoin wallets are open-source and they are everywhere. The more 'restricted' they become at this point the more people will self-custody and the harder to stop Bitcoin.
The real downfall of governments, both in the US and EU is the totally out-of-control fiscal irresponsibility. You can't cheat math forever... and I believe that one day it will be really out-of-hand and undeniable. Then, eventually, people will flock to Bitcoin as a safe-haven and the tools will be strong enough to provide it to the masses.
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I agree with you that it is wrong, unethical, and illogical. I'm just describing the facts of the current situation and likely worsening future.
I also like to use crypto for everyday payments. But it's more for ideological reasons like yourself. Spending Bitcoin on white markets for everyday transactions is such a tiny segment of people. Only the real believers will do that. It makes no sense for normal people to do it for multiple reasons (digital fiat is cheaper, faster, convenient, follows the rules of white markets, and widely accepted)
Bitcoin can only compete with government money if you are making the transactions they don't want you to (black market AKA free markets). If you are making transactions only under their rules on their markets they control, of course they are going to play unfairly and make it onerous to use there...they also use legal ambiguity to make businesses fearful
Addressing your Monero comment: That's true they don't care about privacy. But vast majority of people don't care about sovereignty, being free and responsibility that comes with it either. So I'm not concerned with them. Bitcoin and Monero will only ever appeal to a small group of freedom loving individuals (custodians and permissioned use doesnt count i.e. exchanges. I'm talking about really using it). And that's fine. It's a power we didn't have before.
Most don't understand the root of inflation either. It's obvious to us because we are immersed in this stuff and in a bubble. Ask the average Joe on the street and he either doesn't know or doesn't care about that stuff.
Agree that the EU can pound sand. I'm just saying when they get their way, the only escape is non-compliance via black markets (The true free markets). We see this all thru history when government clamps down.
Either way governments are not going down without a fight. Fiat dominance is an existential crisis for them and they'll do every dirty and violent thing they can to maintain it.
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"Either way governments are not going down without a fight. Fiat dominance is an existential crisis for them and they'll do every dirty and violent thing they can to maintain it."
Unfortunately I agree with you. I feel like a crazy person... but I think it's clear at this point that government does not want to lose control of their ultimate power - the money supply. A free, independent, international money separate from state power and manipulation (for example the money printer and interest rates) is a really BIG idea. It's a HUGE idea and in my opinion it's desperately needed.
I respect some of what I read about Monero... but here is my issue with it. I was looking at the 'marketplaces' and 'places to spend' Monero - not black market but gray market mostly... and there are still way way fewer places overall than with Bitcoin.
Monero from what I can tell has maybe 1/20th the total number of places to actually spend it - whether it's gift cards, VPNs, software, food, other peer-to-peer items... the Monero market appears really really small compared to Bitcoin's. I don't really care about the black-market stuff I do not use drugs. I'm interested in lawful commerce, just regular goods and services and Bitcoin has way more of that, although it's still uncommon day-to-day. Basically if you want people to trade with and buy and sell - Bitcoin is by far the biggest crypto market nothing else comes close.
In that sense Monero is just so small. If relatively few people know what Bitcoin is much less how to transact in it... way way fewer know anything about Monero. This is part of the discussion going on with Proton Wallet right now - XMR may be more private (maybe) but the network effects pale in comparison with Bitcoin's and most people will never have the skillset or curiosity to even acquire Monero since it was delisted.
I agree that governments are not 'playing fair'... I believe that Bitcoin transcends governments - Bitcoin is not 'underneath' the fiat system. It is its own separate system maybe above Fiat in some ways it really is the 'ultimate' money.
Something I slightly disagree with... is the idea that custodians don't matter. Businesses and institutions cannot legally custody their own coins - at least for right now. To custody them they really need institutions... no it's not self-custody obviously. But it gets them into the game and this is not a black-and-white issue. Some people and organizations need others that are regulated and audited to hold their coins for them so that they can benefit from Bitcoin financially. And impact the Bitcoin market as well.
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