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2966 sats \ 30 comments \ @elvismercury 4 Jan mostly_harmless

The recent run-up to Jan 3 got me digging into Lightning more intensely. It's so deep! Especially, the idea of a channel, and the weird dynamics of channels, and the extremely non-intuitive (to me) idea of inbound vs outbound capacity have captured a lot of mental cycles.

I woke up this morning thinking about channel capacity in real life. Like, the people I have channels to, and the relative flows in those channels. In particular, how much inbound capacity there is. Inbound is the hardest to think about for some reason - creating circumstances where someone reaches out to you, gives to you. What that feels like, what depends on it, the tools you have to bring it about.

In (relatively) recent times, in Lightning, you can just buy inbound capacity. You pay someone to pay a bit of attention to you, to allocate attention to you, for a while. In theory, they could keep the channel open -- it could prove a good idea to keep those resources allocated. What would it take, to make it worth the trouble?

What about in real life? What about the inbound capacity of the friend you made a year ago? What about the friend you've had for twenty years? What's the nature of the channel maintenance in these cases, and what's gained and lost as channels come and go?

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298 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined 4 Jan

You've got me thinking about how people always adopt current technologies as metaphors for our psyches. Presumably, that's because it's too hard to think about directly.

When you're not getting what you need from a relationship, is that because you have insufficient inbound liquidity (standoffishness, maybe) or does the other person have insufficient outbound liquidity (withholding) or maybe their channel fee is too high or yours is?

How do you parse those?

Is it helpful being able to list out the options in this way?

I look forward to all the armchair amateur psychologizing using bitcoin analogies in the years ahead.

28 sats \ 2 replies \ @elvismercury OP 4 Jan

Yeah, the available tech is definitely a driver of the popular metaphors.

When you're not getting what you need from a relationship, is that because you have insufficient inbound liquidity (standoffishness, maybe) or does the other person have insufficient outbound liquidity (withholding) or maybe their channel fee is too high or yours is?

I like the 'standoffishness' mapping. Mainly I like to think about things that I control, that might bias toward more inbound, vs things I can't. Pulling on this thread, in the past, in person, I know I had a very imposing demeanor, which sent a message that I was not someone it was okay to engage with. Part of that was an accident, part of it was on purpose. Eventually I decided that it was a bad idea, that it was killing my inbound, and I began making efforts to knock it off.

My digital persona underwent a similar journey, now I think on it.

Probably one can have too much inbound capacity, but it's usually not a problem in practice as far as I can tell.

27 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 4 Jan

Probably one can have too much inbound capacity, but it's usually not a problem in practice as far as I can tell.

There is a cost to opening channels, if we want to continue the metaphor. Your inbound liquidity may come at a great cost to you, while (possibly) simultaneously aiding your network.

27 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 4 Jan

I hadn't even thought about the effects on the wider network, but that's totally true, e.g., Granovetter 1973 and Burt 2004 among a million others.

201 sats \ 2 replies \ @SimpleStacker 4 Jan

Going with this metaphor, I am horrible at keeping my inbound capacity up. That's because I'm naturally introverted, and when given a choice of what to do, I prefer to do things by myself than with other people. Thus, I don't naturally seek out friends and acquaintances to spend time together, and relationships grow cold and distant easily.

I don't feel too bad about it, as I've come to be at peace with who I am. But I do recognize it as something I can improve on.

95 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 4 Jan

I'm a little bit that way, and the nice thing is that it means that it doesn't actually take that much to make a quite big difference, relatively.

For instance, if your inbound is 1000 sats (obv ridiculous, but speaking metaphorically) then doubling it is really cheap; but even though it's cheap, that represents a massive growth of opportunity.

If you double anything whose scarcity is constraining your life, it probably makes a big difference. That's a v optimistic thought.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 4 Jan

I rely on cowboy credits

232 sats \ 1 reply \ @Heisenbergbitcoin 5 Jan

My outbound capacity is extremely high. I make it a point to help anyone to the highest possible extent. I am what you call a “Yes man”. Yes to everything and then think about how to actually solve the problem at hand. This can be quite stressful. I have realised I need to either reduce my inbound capacity or at least the flow and to be particularly selective about whom I choose to help. This is true in various aspects of life such as work, relationships, and love. Heck, I have even helped strangers so many times without any expectations in return.

My inbound capacity depends on the aspect of life. For example, my inbound capacity to criticism is the lowest. I take everything personally. Hugely working on getting this capacity higher. My god, now that I said it loud, it makes me feel lighter. Thank you SN folks for the opportunity to express. Also in general my inbound capacity is lesser because I ask for help lesser than what I provide.

Also the country/city that you live in hugely affects these capacities I think. For example in the Nordic countries, most people have lesser outbound capacities. This can affect you if you are used to larger inputs from others.

Regarding friendships irrespective of time frame my outbound capacity is high. And sadly the cost of maintenance of the channels of many close friendships is high inspite of my high outbound cap. It’s just not possible when people move to different countries. Timezones. Their own personal lives. Such are the tribulations of modern lives.

Once again thank you for this wonderful post. @elvismercury

12 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 6 Jan

Thanks for riffing on the metaphor :)

Also in general my inbound capacity is lesser because I ask for help lesser than what I provide.

A lesson I can't remember where I learned, but that has really stuck with me, is on the power of asking for things. Not the "you can't get stuff if you don't ask for it" takeaway, although there's a lot of truth to that, too. (There's a Benjamin Franklin story about this I can't locate atm which is also worth reading.) But in the less-well-understood sense of "letting people help you is a gift to them."

For people like you -- who give more than they ask for -- it can be amazingly powerful to let others be of service. You should try it and report back :)

75 sats \ 0 replies \ @nym 4 Jan

As in life, a few large, reliable channels are better than a lot of small non-reliable channels.

75 sats \ 4 replies \ @OneOneSeven 4 Jan

We stayed at a childhood friend's house when I visited home for Christmas.

Him and I must've opened our channel back in 6th grade when we became friends. Been running great, if anything we've "spliced in" and increased capacity a bit here and there haha. Gets harder when you move away from home though.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @elvismercury OP 4 Jan

What does splicing mean in this context? I love the metaphor. Dig into it a bit.

108 sats \ 2 replies \ @OneOneSeven 4 Jan

I may be using the term wrong cuz I'm still an idiot wrt Lightning, but I think it's where you can increase channel capacity without closing the channel.

I think we grew our "channel capacity" a lot in the early years and that has helped "keep the channel open" into adulthood, even though I moved away and have a much lower # of transactions with friends back home. I'm lucky to have those kinds of channels still, I know not everyone does.

181 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 4 Jan

but I think it's where you can increase channel capacity without closing the channel.

Yes, that’s splice-in and splice-out is the reverse, see article on bitcoinops

82 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 4 Jan

Figuring out how to grow capacity with smaller number of transactions is an interesting problem in its own right. I think about this by trying to be as fully present as possible when I'm with someone, like I want them to feel me intensely.

I have someone I consider a top 5 friend who I see every couple of years, but man, I am all the way there when we're together.

108 sats \ 0 replies \ @supratic 4 Jan

life metaphors, energies flows

54 sats \ 0 replies \ @jakoyoh629 4 Jan

When we apply this concept to human relationships, matters become significantly more intricate. The "cost" of maintaining a relationship is not always monetary; it often involves "investing" time, emotional energy, and sometimes even physical resources.

With a recent friend, the inbound capacity may be relatively low. They are still getting to know you and their attention is likely divided among other new connections. Building trust and demonstrating your value as a friend are crucial steps in increasing your inbound capacity with them.

In contrast, a long-standing friendship generally possesses a higher inbound capacity. You have "invested" years cultivating the relationship, and the trust and understanding you share allow for deeper and more meaningful interactions. However, even the strongest friendships have their limits. Life events, career changes, and new relationships can impact the available inbound capacity.

54 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bit_Alb 4 Jan

Love this parallel between lightning channels and friendship! It's so true about inbound connections being the tricky part - you can't force someone to reach out or care.

117 sats \ 1 reply \ @SatoshiNakanodo 4 Jan

WOW. I just realized all of my friends are really just prostitutes.

108 sats \ 0 replies \ @south_korea_ln 4 Jan

Be a generous client, then~~

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @TheWildHustle 4 Jan

I was thinking,

Whats the difference between me having a lightning channel opened to CoinOs vs me using a CoinOS mint to hold a portion of my e-cash.

And then

What if it was as easy to create and manage a mint like it was to open a lightning channel and manage its liquidity with a peer.

A recreation of the lightning network where mints are channels, weird to think about and definitely not fully flushed out....but strange at the very least.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 5 Jan

Whats the difference between me having a lightning channel opened to CoinOs vs me using a CoinOS mint to hold a portion of my e-cash.

I think you wanted to say using CoinOS that holds ecash from your mint?

A recreation of the lightning network where mints are channels, weird to think about and definitely not fully flushed out....but strange at the very least.

I think you would be interested in reading about hosted channels

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheWildHustle 5 Jan

I was thinking more along the lines of the oxchat e-cash wallet being compared to a lightning node and the selected mints being compared to channels. So CoinOs is being compared to something like the Zeus LSP, Oxchat is being compared to Albyhub. And I was thinking if individual plebs created mints, it would be similar to lightning channels.......

On a scale of 0-100 how retarded is the comparison.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture 5 Jan

Great topic always try to give more that 50% to channels and real relationships. When you get older and get married and have kids it gets harder and the stats show that. There are only 168 hours in a week. Use them wisely!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @AlCoHoLnAcEtOnE 5 Jan

Yeah, it's a headache tbh...I've all but abandoned my channel and thus my $20 bucks opening it haha

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ZezzebbulTheMysterious 5 Jan

Lightning also feels a little like gravity. Channel flows strongly on one channel (high gravity), and another pushes sats toward you aggressively (anti-gravity). The flow of sats is the movement in space between channels of high and anti-high gravity.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @5ca79d5112 5 Jan

This is something that had been on my mind as well. I have been looking at Alby, breeze, and coinos.io and trying to understand what is best for me. Thanks for sharing.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Miranda 4 Jan

LN is for me right now one of the most complete, efficient and fast BTC payment networks, certainly I have not tried others because LN is the one I use but I have 100% guarantee with this network, and its channels for opening payments in fractions of BTC are very fluid and fast. thanks for sharing. sats for all.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Lux 4 Jan

money is a tool for channeling energy

money is a channel

channel money

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @supratic 4 Jan

money is materialized energy