Why I am moving away from Umbrel; tldr: Fungibility attack on Bitcoin \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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Why I am moving away from Umbrel; tldr: Fungibility attack on Bitcoin

3984 sats \ 19 comments \ @charonnakamoto 15 Jan bitcoin

As I have called out in #850855 I am planning to move away from Umbrel. Primarily I was frustrated one couldn't purchase their node using BTC, but a friend told me later on that if you escalate to support they do allow for you to use BTC, but that needs to be BTC bought in reputable sources like Coinbase and Binance. The friend showed me that email to me and I can verify that. This is a kind of a fungibility attack on Bitcoin, like similar to some of the discourse on tainted BTC(if they are coinjoined), which doesn't sit well with me. I feel this is a kind of FUD, if not nipped in the bud will create an attack surface on Bitcoin calling some UTXOs more equal, but the same.

Start9 and MyNode allows to purchase their node using BTC. So, why not just move over and support a company that actually maintains some semblance of the BTC ethos(In a Bushido of Bitcoinesque way of speaking).

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228 sats \ 0 replies \ @fiatbad 15 Jan

Yes!

This is the attitude we need if we actually care about Bitcoin and aren't just larping.

Boycott companies that practice UTXO discrimination. Boycott companies that offer and/or support altcoins of any kind. Coinbase, Casa, Ledger, Bitrefill. Bitcoiners should NOT be using these services. Boycotting and demanding a higher code of ethics should be one of our defining qualities.

Eventually, I'd like to add to that list: "Boycott any company accepting fiat." But I know this is kinda difficult at the present time.

204 sats \ 2 replies \ @kristapsk 15 Jan

needs to be BTC bought in reputable sources like Coinbase and Binance

That's stupid! Amount is small and they have your delivery details anyway. Some USA law requirement for them? It does not even reach new EU "travel rule" limits. I don't think I'm required to do any additional KYC to accept payments for goods and services in EU under 1000 EUR as a legal entity.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bell_curve 16 Jan

If you spend 995 EUR then no KYC?

what if you did this daily?

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @kristapsk 16 Jan

It's not about KYC when buying, it's amount at which centralized exchanges must ask you to which wallet are you sending bitcoins, is it your wallet, etc. And AFAIK I can accept also same way for goods and services on a company, just write invoice / receipt, like with cash (which is kinda KYC anyway). But I might be wrong here in details. In any case, "travel rule" kinda does not affect payments between two non-custodial wallets and likely does not affect non financial institutions or institutions under MiCA. Then again, limits on accepting cash for legal entities in Latvia is few times bigger. When somebody finally will want to pay in bitcoins to my company, then we'll see. Some time ago one guy did presentation about buying real estate with BTC here, AFAIR buyer just needs to prove source of funds, that he had legally earned X amount, not something about specific UTXO from which you send coins.

136 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 15 Jan

Thanks for telling us that. I had no idea. I agree that it should be something we need to push back on. You would hate to buy something with a coin joined UTXO and then have it reported or have to jump through some hoops to get it back.

BTW, this is why I will only buy something over lightning. You don't need to worry about any of that

20 sats \ 4 replies \ @nym 15 Jan

I agree. Could be a compliance thing for them, but I agree with ya.

113 sats \ 3 replies \ @charonnakamoto OP 15 Jan

My concern is a philosophical one, as I’m uncomfortable supporting the fungibility attack they are implicitly supporting. Also, if Start9 and NyNode can accept BTC, that sets a precedent. Why can’t Umbrel do the same?

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @79c9095526 15 Jan

Some companies "pre-comply". I believe Wasabi wallet is an example of this. US law enforcement did not tell them anything, but they were shaken up by what happened with the Samurai guys so they shut out US users and shut down their coinjoin service.

Same thing with Phoenix wallet I believe pulling out of the US.

I agree with you, this is a fungibility attack, some companies with a more bitcoin ethos choose to follow the actual letter of the law (start9, mynode) while others like umbrel who aren't really bitcoin companies but rather I'd say great at UI and marketing are being overly compliant with what they think the government wants so they don't get in any trouble.

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @000w2 16 Jan

Lightning fixes it. Places that accept bitcoin without lightning will not do well just from the pure economics of it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nym 15 Jan

I wonder the same

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @000w2 15 Jan

Cannan also do this over their $100 miner. If they don't like your utxo (they say it has a high risk score), they will send it back.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @charonnakamoto OP 16 Jan

I wanted to update you that the migration from Umbrel to Start9 is complete! Was seamless :) The umbrel server is now shutdown.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @tomlaies 15 Jan

but that needs to be BTC bought in reputable sources like Coinbase and Binance. The friend showed me that email to me and I can verify that. This is a kind of a fungibility attack on Bitcoin

A different kind of economic node. And you're another kind of economic node indirectly voting against it.

Since we recently had a discussion about a broader understanding of the term

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @af1f6f3e17 15 Jan

Just use minibolt and raspibolt.

187 sats \ 4 replies \ @charonnakamoto OP 15 Jan

I want to run my node on a more robust infrastructure, so I'm not looking at Raspberry Pi implementations anymore. Start9 seems solid with its purely open-source OS, which is a full-fledged OS, unlike Umbrel, which is more like an app on top of Linux. I am on track to sync the whole timechain(from scratch) within 36 hours. I am at the 22-hour mark and 85% sync with the better infra. My only real concern is how to migrate the LN setup from Umbrel to Start9, which is the content of this post #850855

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 15 Jan

Start9 is an app on top of Linux

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @af1f6f3e17 15 Jan

Minibolt then, much better than Start9

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @charonnakamoto OP 15 Jan

why?

85 sats \ 0 replies \ @af1f6f3e17 15 Jan

you have much more control and less trust on what they do, when update this and that,plus it's much lighter and more efficient. Check it out: https://minibolt.minibolt.info/