Please read this exchange about "deduplicated SSN Numbers". Which of the two do you think is the truth?
The government doesn't use SQL42.3%
Elon has never used SQL30.8%
A secret third option26.9%
26 votes \ poll ended
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109 sats \ 7 replies \ @freetx 12 Feb
Its a complicated question to answer because we don't have enough data. A few points:
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As of last count US Treasury used 30 different COBOL based systems to process payments, there was a bill passed around 2020 to modernize these and bring them all within a single application, however not sure what status is (probably not done)
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The original COBOL systems did not use SQL (since it wasn't invented yet). Instead they used VSAM (Virtual Storage Access Method) a popular IBM creation in 70s, also used Flat Files, and DB2
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While DB2 (an IBM database), is now a SQL database, its original incantation was more difficult to describe. It was accessible via SQL dialect from within COBOL programs but was originally all part of the "system" (ie it was tightly integrated with everything else and not originally accessible as a "separate SQL DB")
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @zuspotirko OP 12 Feb
I see this at work sometimes. On IBMs zOS it is possible to read data from the database without going through DB2 SQL itself. This is also the reason why DB2 handles shemas and users in a quirky way.
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9 sats \ 5 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Feb
which came first, SQL or relational databases?
If Treasury uses COBOL, then their systems think the year is 1925
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9 sats \ 4 replies \ @freetx 12 Feb
Yes, System R (another IBM product) was widely considered to be first commercial relational db. This was late 60s I think.....sometime in the 70s that "migrated" into what we know as SQL.
Interestingly, really "SQL" is just the query language....so what we call "SQL DB" is a relational database with a "SQL Syntax" interface.
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9 sats \ 3 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Feb
I guess SSN is not a primary key
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109 sats \ 2 replies \ @freetx 12 Feb
Even if its not a primary key, it could still have UNIQUE constraint applied.
I imagine there a valid reasons why they don't have it set. The amount of people either unintentionally or intentionally using the wrong SSN is probably non-trivial. Having it as a unique/primary key would prohibit you from doing some other transaction involving that person.....
I mean technically a SSN is "only" supposed to refer to your social security account, it was never intended to become a universal identifier....
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Feb
I can't wait for the next judical activist to rule on primary keys, foreign keys, unique constraints, inner/outer joins.
No master/slave architecture! 13th amendment prohibits any kind of slave.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Feb
Is there a good reason for using the wrong SSN?
#883712
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90 sats \ 1 reply \ @fiatbad 12 Feb
"The Government" is a broad term.
Lots of parts of the government use SQL.... but many do not. I've worked behind the scenes on some of the gov's tax software, and yea, it's really bad. They are unwilling to upgrade their systems due to all the regulations and fear of breaking stuff. Also, no incentives to innovate.
Elon has written lots of software. He's used SQL.
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38 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 12 Feb
@fiatbad don't mess up a perfectly good straw man.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @79c9095526 12 Feb
Elon's post has been community noted as apparently the government uses MySQL which surprise surprise he wasn't aware of when he posted his comment.
I guess he did tell us in his press conference yesterday "I will be wrong many times"
Only issue is he says things so assertively and it reaches such a broad audience that even if someone else bothers to correct his statement, the original was already in the wild and hundreds of millions of people took it to be correct
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21 sats \ 3 replies \ @SimpleStacker 12 Feb
Maybe I'm dense but what is the relationship between duped SSNs and not knowing SQL?
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30 sats \ 2 replies \ @zuspotirko OP 12 Feb
It's a fundamental property of SQL (and data engineering more general tbh) that when you want to query data (especially but not exclusively with joins) you can get multiple rows per one primary key.
Example: If @SimpleStacker ate an apple and a banana today SQL wouldn't say "SimpleStacker; Apple, Banana", instead it would say
| Person | Food | Quantity |
|---|---|---|
| SimpleStacker | Apple | 1 |
| SimpleStacker | Banana | 1 |
Notice how the primary key "SimpleStacker" appeared twice
From this we CANNOT say for sure if Elon is missinterpreting how SQL works or if the goverment has broken data.
What I find interesting here is how Elon uses all the words ("database", "de-duplicated") like someone who doesn't understand SQL but at the same time he built Zip2 and Tesla, making it unthinkable that he doesn't know how SQL work.
Maybe his account is also partially run by an intern, who knows
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100 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker 12 Feb
I thought a simple interpretation of his statement was simply that in whatever database he's referring to, there's no table in which SSN is the primary key. That is, it's not a primary key at all and multiple people can have the same SSN by design. Maybe I'm missing some context from the whole thread, but from just the screenshot I can't see why this implies Elon doesn't know SQL.
It is as you say, it's almost impossible that he doesn't know how SQL works...
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30 sats \ 0 replies \ @optimism 13 Feb
Lets be real: there shouldn't be a table with cleartext SSNs in the first place!
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Feb
Does the judicial branch use SQL?
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @itsrealfake 12 Feb
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Feb
What is the fundamental premise of the attempts to stop DOGE from discovering and laying upon the table the full scope of fraud, waste and abuse in the government? It's simple: Those screaming are the ones that profit most from the theft.
What happens when you tolerate this sort of thing over the space of decades? You get more of it.
It was rather amusing to see Elon say that he was "astonished" that Social Security numbers are not de-duplicated in the IRS and Treasury systems. I've known this for literally decades. Well duh; were they de-duplicated you couldn't successfully use one from a dead person nor have 10 people using the same one. Attempting to use a dead person's SSN would instantly get rejected because its already in the system and that person is dead, so unless that person is Jesus this is hard proof of fraud. Send the cops and, assuming its not a mistake of transposed numbers, into prison you go for said fraud.
Got 10 "employers" all claiming someone with the same SSN is working for them? No they're not; that's fraud. Dispatch the cops to all 10 employers, find said persons in each case, arrest the nine of them that are using someone else's SSN.
Oh, some of those fraudsters file for refundable (e.g. EITC) tax credits and the children claimed are on false or duplicates SSNs? Send the cops there and arrest all but the one legitimate parent. Nine of the ten are committing fraud; its not a mistake, its fraud and they're stealing money, in many cases as much as $10,000 each and every year.
This stuff isn't hard folks -- in fact its trivially easy.
Which states are screaming the loudest? They're screaming because if you cut this fraud off and jail people for it then their states have a problem in that they gain revenue from each of these illegally-claimed "dependents", never mind the EBT funds that are then spent in that state.
In other words those AG's are not only beneficiaries of the fraud they are directly conspiring by filing this action to force it to continue, and thus by doing so are committing Racketeering. And no, a State Agency employee is not immune from federal prosecution if they commit a federal crime.
Charge them and lock them up.
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=252807
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