How do Non-KYC Bitcoin P2P platforms escape funding terrorism and Cartels? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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How do Non-KYC Bitcoin P2P platforms escape funding terrorism and Cartels?

738 sats \ 30 comments \ @IamSINGLE 13 Feb bitcoin_beginners

It just popped up into my head so randomly while I read that money related platforms need KYC to counter Money Laundering and terrorism funding. This seems to me a very genuine requisite living in a country where a lot of fiat money goes to terrorists through "Havala".

While Bitcoin gives us an ability to bypass KYC and transfer money anonymously to anyone anywhere anytime, can't both or either of the seller or buyer be associated to terrorists or cartels?

I'm not entirely educated on Bitcoin P2P platforms, so I think there must be something to identify criminals or terrorists I'm unaware of. So, tell me what I'm missing here?

How do Non-KYC Bitcoin P2P platforms escape funding terrorism and Cartels?

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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @john_doe 13 Feb

I remember 3-4 years ago I saw a report from a Bitcoin company stating the proportion of bad actors doing transactions is not significant. Unfortunately I can't remember the source of the document, so instead let me quote ChatGPT: "According to a 2021 report by Chainalysis, illicit activities accounted for only 0.15% of all cryptocurrency transactions that year, totaling approximately $14 billion". 0.15% is not significant. Condemning everyone for terrorism by imposing some form of bureaucracy doesn't work.

We should worry more about fraudulent activities inside government institutions (like... USAID) which impact everyone. Today politicians may want KYC for terrorism, yesterday the trend was spying on everyone for children. In El Salvador it seems they didn't need KYC or another form of bureaucracy to arrest criminals.

81 sats \ 2 replies \ @Aardvark 13 Feb

Terrorists will always find a way to get funding. There's no reason to telry to stop their funding with non KYC bitcoin because, there's no reason to give up your freedom to stop bad people from doing bad things. That's how you end up with our nanny state watching every single transaction you make.

54 sats \ 0 replies \ @john_doe 13 Feb

I highly agree with this comment. From a philosophical perspective it reminds me the discussion 10-15 years ago about ACTA: https://stallman.org/articles/acta-freedom.html

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @IamSINGLE OP 13 Feb

So, you mean there's actually no way P2P transactions can identify bad actors?

I'm not saying that they won't get funded by other ways but I just wanted to know if there's some kind of technology or something else that's watching it.

46 sats \ 4 replies \ @fiatbad 13 Feb

One thing to keep in mind is that it's difficult to buy/sell large amounts of Bitcoin/Fiat in a no KYC manner. They make for really great ways to DCA small amounts of Bitcoin... but they are tough to do lump sum amounts. I assume this would make it difficult to do a lot of money laundering activities.

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @IamSINGLE OP 13 Feb

I agree for "now". But what in future? Would you like to trade with a terrorist, even unknowingly?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @fiatbad 13 Feb

How did the world operate before the modern era of mass state surveillance? No-KYC was kinda the norm, was it not?

Everything comes with tradeoffs. We gain something, and we lose something.

In the past, when states or dictators push too far, revolutions happen and they are overthrown. We are moving toward a world where a central authority may have the tools to become truly impossible to overthrow no matter how large the revolution becomes. Surveillance tech is getting too good, especially with AI. We have a short window of time to establish freedom tools which are decentralized enough. No-KYC, decentralized identities and software is one of the most powerful tools we have.

Empower terrorists a tiny bit, but prevent a dystopian future where every citizen lives in hell...... yea, I think the tradeoff is worth it.

30 sats \ 1 reply \ @IamSINGLE OP 13 Feb

This makes sense with an acceptance of a trade off. We actually need to decide what we really want a dystopian future or empowering terrorist?

I think this is something where most people would want to eradicate terrorism first.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @fiatbad 13 Feb

I think this is something where most people would want to eradicate terrorism first.

I agree. Which is why I think there is so little public adoption of these freedom tools. Even Bitcoin adoption is pathetically small considering how big an idea it is.... and then among Bitcoiners, there is an even smaller amount who use no-KYC exchanges, NOSTR, and other important tools.

They just don't understand the threat. Terrorism feels like a greater threat to them.

38 sats \ 3 replies \ @alt 13 Feb

How does KYC prevent funding terrorism in the first place? It's not like the terrorists sign up for a bank account stating "occupation: islamic extremist".

There have been ways to funnel money and resources to illegitimate causes since the advent of money, and the presence of KYC/AML regulations hasn't stopped it.

I don't have any stats, but I would wager that removing KYC/AML and allowing total financial freedom for individuals would do more to reduce terrorism than the KYC/AML regulations achieve on their own.

31 sats \ 2 replies \ @IamSINGLE OP 13 Feb

I don't have any stats, but I would wager that removing KYC/AML and allowing total financial freedom for individuals would do more to reduce terrorism than the KYC/AML regulations achieve on their own.

How?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @alt 13 Feb

Purely through the broader changes that such freedom would create in society. A freer society ends up being a happier, healthier, richer society, with a greater incentive to cooperate and trade peacefully.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @IamSINGLE OP 13 Feb

I think there would always be both sides, no matter how freer the society gets.

33 sats \ 5 replies \ @3a42879d5f 13 Feb

Allow me to unload that question for you. They don't. Bitcoin is a road. Bad people and good people use roads. Roads are for everybody.

31 sats \ 3 replies \ @IamSINGLE OP 13 Feb

So, when someone sells bitcoin there and get back fiat from a bad actor, won't he risk himself an investigation?

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bitcoiner1 13 Feb

Could be...but, what happened if you received cash in hand?

Also, if you're selling SATs on a P2P market you could be a victim of a triangulation scam. But, for me P2P market is the place to buy BTC.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @IamSINGLE OP 13 Feb

I also don't sell there. I was just asking.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 13 Feb

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Sandman 13 Feb

That's absolutely true

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 13 Feb

I don’t think terror cells are buying bitcoin $100-300 at a time on p2p platforms.

I used to work at a big name exchange in the US and got a glimpse of some of the reported cases involving cartels and a group in the middle east.

The big players are committing fraud on the big exchanges with fake KYC data and abusing elderly puppets who are none the wiser.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @denlillaapan 13 Feb

While Bitcoin gives us an ability to bypass KYC and transfer money anonymously to anyone anywhere anytime, can't both or either of the seller or buyer be associated to terrorists or cartels?

Yes.

I probably had a criminal/scammer/stolen or hacked bank account on the other end of a recent Peach trade (#878699). Nothing stops that train either

30 sats \ 1 reply \ @IamSINGLE OP 13 Feb

“Trade-based money laundering in India soared to a whopping $674.9 billion for the 10-year period from 2009 to 2018 which reflects the magnitude of illicit trade that has emerged as a major threat to the country’s economy and security,” the report said. https://www.moneylife.in/article/money-laundering-via-illicit-trade-hovering-at-5-percentage-of-indias-gdp-says-cii-study/72120.html

India has been struggling to combat terrorism and money laundering for a very long time. You could listen a terrorist attack news almost everyday 10 years ago. The situation has drastically improved under Modi but terrorism threat is not completely gone. Maybe in future we have solution to flag out bad actor P2P orders on decentralised platforms.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 13 Feb

I'd be inclined to go the other direction. It's not the money's fault (or a problem of the money rails) that people in the real world commit crimes.

Maybe we should just ditch the entire money "laundering" idea, and accept that a neutral money means bad people will hold/buy/sell/transfer for evil reasons, and that's OK as well.

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @pillar 13 Feb

How do we avoid US dollars funding terrorism and cartels?

How do we avoid terrorism and cartels using physics? Or English?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic 19 Feb

I recommend reading this to understand that KYC AML affects US, not criminals and terrorists who have the means and will to get around it.

tl;dr it's the cops job to catch bad people, it's not P2P platforms job to screen, filter, collect, label, identify... privacy is GOOD, and not having it puts normal people at risk.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 13 Feb

How exactly are P2P platforms "funding" terrorism and cartels? Do they have some donation page that the P2P platforms are sending money to? I reject the framing of the question with respect.

IMO its pretty much impossible to avoid money changing hands to bad people. If you pay taxes it is likely you are funding terrorism, but not willingly hopefully.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 13 Feb

I get what you mean though. I would have phrased it as providing services not funding. They aren't funding but they could be unknowingly providing a service to them. This is true of pretty much every industry. They likely have customers that are evil and doing evil things.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @dough 13 Feb

Answer your question with a question: How do you prevent terrorists and cartels from funding operations with physical cash? At least with BTC there is a recorded data base. On-chain tools are always improving and finding criminals from years past.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @stack_harder 13 Feb

i dont think the liquidity is anywhere near enough on non kyc bitcoin site for a potential terroirst, plus they would still have a fiat payment or receiving method that would probably get flagged for performing or receiving a ton of transaction types

most terrorists basic laundering and good old hsbc i expect

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @IamSINGLE OP 13 Feb

Yupp. I agree.

However my question is if there's any way to flag these bad actors out of P2P platforms?

Looking at other comments I get it that there's no way.