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Most of the pro-interventionist takes that I've heard are very emotive rather than logical. They're all along the lines of, "OH SO YOU ARE A KREMLIN STOOGE???" rather than offering any substantive argument.
Precisely. That's pretty annoying altogether.
Most people I know have this conviction, and state propaganda is heaaaavy into it as well. I'm torn between thinking:
  • what do all these people know/see that I don't?
  • is everyone really this stupid/duped?
I mean, just look at a few of the responses I've gotten on SN, #904254 and #904288. Basically calling me a Kremlin stooge, lol.
The thing is, I'm looking for good arguments from the other side. I'm looking to be convinced, but no one seems to be willing to try. I guess Kremlin stooges like me aren't worth convincing.
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the "best" I'm getting is slippery slopes: if we don't stop BigBadRussia there, they won't stop until all of Europe is conquered.
I'm not persuaded by that emotive, hysterical, catastrophizing, baseless idea. But again: maybe they all see something I don't?
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30 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford 18h
I have discussed this war several times and get the same responses. It's interesting and I think it exposes people's lack of critical thinking. Not because they disagree but how they disagree. Baked into most of these positions is the idea of a good and bad guy. That's the trap. It could bad vs worse or good vs good. Honestly it's disappointing to see such weak responses.
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Yep... see above!
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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 17h
These types of responses remind me of when Ron Paul dared to ask the question of why did Osama Bin Laden attack the US. He never was justifying the attacks but simply trying to get people to think about US foreign policy and the consequences of the actions it controls. You can't control others. The talking heads and politicians had a field day with Paul but his boldness really stuck out to me.
The weak answers to his very fair and rational questions are one of the big reasons I left the Republican party and conservatism. He exposed their lack of curiosity and logic. The response at the time to the attacks was... "they hate our freedom". Its absurd. Now just like then there are a many many foreign policy experts that have warned of the blow back consequences of US policy.
This doesn't excuse Bin Laden or Putin of their actions. Surely people on SN can see that the US foreign policy machine has made mistakes at best. Or, at worst thrown the weight of the US war machine around threatening smaller powers. The US meddles in foreign elections, overthrows regimes, assassinates foreign leaders, and invades other countries. This really can't be disputed. It is just usually ignored.
Blind support for any state is foolish. War is evil and the US doesn't have clean hands. Nor does Putin. So... as a free thinking individual I am left wondering how many of the US leaders of the past made decisions that could have provoked this outcome?
When I read about what led up to WW2 I find that it too could have been prevented had the outcome of WW1 been handled differently. Had the victors not been so vindictive it is highly unlikely someone like Hitler could have rose to power.
After watching politicians on the local, state, and national level one thing is clear. They care about one thing. Votes. They have almost zero skin in the game long term. They often make arrogant decisions with little care for the consequences. They never pay for their mistakes. The masses are emotional and we can even see it here on SN when we discuss this current war. Politicians feed on this and use it to gain power.
Putin is using it as well. The US is demonstrating its empire powers. Even if he wanted to invaded regardless of the actions of NATO, the US has given him every excuse to use to justify his actions. That's a mistake.
I am old enough to remember the cold war and the fall of the USSR. It made an impact on me. I remember thinking how great it was that the US and Russia were talking and moving away from war in the 90s. I think so very bad people on both sides didn't want that to continue and they have actively worked to push toward conflict. The amount of money to be gained by the threat of WW3 is crazy. You are kidding yourself if you think that isn't a massive factor in this conflict.
It just so frustrating to hear weak responses to these arguments. We hear these responses because they are easy and feed on people's patriotism, nationalism, and emotionalism.
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I guess Kremlin stooges like me aren't worth convincing.
This!
(I didn’t call you a Kremlin stooge, you did though)
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